5 ms·

Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably

Thank you for all that detail! A tangential question: At elite levels how well does performance on an ergo translate to on water performance? I rowed reasonably successfully at a junior level and I was much faster in a boat than others that would kick my butt on an ergo. This was always explained away as better technique. I’d be interested to know at a level where everyone has great technique if ergo/boat performance is more consistent.

cycomanic 6y ago
I only have an anecdote, but when I was rowing competitively ergo competitions just started to become a thing. I know that some of them were won by nonrowers even against olympians. IIRC this was particularly true in the lightwave class, because they tend to be less genetic "freaks".
jrudolph 6y ago
Ergs don’t float :-) The most important factor before converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg doesn’t consider any of that. In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated anymore but there should be a published paper about this somewhere [0]. The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights that also did well where usually close to the lightweights. That’s just anecdotal though. There are tons more differences. The next important factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My guess is the next biggest contribution to performance difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able to burry the blade in the water and apply force without losing precious stroke length. This requires precise timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip angle. The erg is much less picky about that. I already mentioned some other points in my previous post, I bet there is tons more. [0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev are great starting points when it comes to rowing research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.
- DrOctagon 6y ago
  Of course! Thank you. My rowing days are long behind me but when everything comes together there truly is no sport like it!
rkangel 6y ago
My impression as a rower who spent a lot of time with people rowing in the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is that the mix is not wildly different. The same rules seem to roughly apply as at lower levels where in an 8 you have people who are more powerful but with less technique in the middle of the boat, while the ends have the people with better technique. One other point is that it's not just about technique but ability to maintain it. What impresses me about Olympic rowing is how perfect their technique continues to be at the end of the race. Having good technique is one thing, but keeping that technique as your muscles tire is very difficult.

cycomanic 6y ago

I only have an anecdote, but when I was rowing competitively ergo competitions just started to become a thing. I know that some of them were won by nonrowers even against olympians. IIRC this was particularly true in the lightwave class, because they tend to be less genetic "freaks".

jrudolph 6y ago

Ergs don’t float :-) The most important factor before converting raw erg performance (i.e average watts over a 2000m race) to water performance is to consider it in relation athlete mass. This is intuitive because more mass means more displacement creating more drag. The erg doesn’t consider any of that. In our testing protocols we had a metric from watt vs mass called p-index. I’m not sure exactly how it’s calculated anymore but there should be a published paper about this somewhere [0]. The lightweights usually had higher p-index values than the heavyweights, though values from the top heavyweights that also did well where usually close to the lightweights. That’s just anecdotal though. There are tons more differences. The next important factor that comes to mind is technique, obviously. My guess is the next biggest contribution to performance difference is the catch, how quickly an athlete is able to burry the blade in the water and apply force without losing precious stroke length. This requires precise timing of vertical and horizontal movement. You do it right when you see a small v shaped splash as the blade enters the water. The measurement for that is called slip angle. The erg is much less picky about that. I already mentioned some other points in my previous post, I bet there is tons more. [0] Volker Nolte, Dieter Altenburg and Valery Kleshnev are great starting points when it comes to rowing research. Theres plenty more if you dig in.

DrOctagon 6y ago
Of course! Thank you. My rowing days are long behind me but when everything comes together there truly is no sport like it!

rkangel 6y ago

My impression as a rower who spent a lot of time with people rowing in the Oxford and Cambridge boat race is that the mix is not wildly different. The same rules seem to roughly apply as at lower levels where in an 8 you have people who are more powerful but with less technique in the middle of the boat, while the ends have the people with better technique. One other point is that it's not just about technique but ability to maintain it. What impresses me about Olympic rowing is how perfect their technique continues to be at the end of the race. Having good technique is one thing, but keeping that technique as your muscles tire is very difficult.