4 ms·

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

by Pxtl 6y ago

lettergram 6y ago
~None~ Many were not discussed on merits. See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.htm http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht... Many are still active (~30) Edit: correction
- knowaveragejoe 6y ago
  Rightfully so, for the accusers own sake - going to jail for peddling this ridiculous election fraud conspiracy in court isn't in their interest.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  googles wiseenergy. Oh look it's the successor to WindpowerFacts.info, run by a climate change denier. I'm so ready to trust his opinion on legal matters.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    You think those are fake links to stanford law on his site? The sources are of equal validity regardless of the messenger.
    - Pxtl 6y ago
      Do you regularly find yourself relying on a Gish Gallop of information provided by pathological liars to support your theses?
      - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
        You must have replied to the wrong comment. I didn’t present a thesis.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > You think those are fake links to stanford law on his site? The sources are of equal validity regardless of the messenger. At least the links I checked (the only thing linked is the title of each case) were to the complaints, so they aren’t sources for the data in the table about the outcomes or grounds for the outcomes.
- javagram 6y ago
  > None were discussed on merits. Incorrect, read some of the cases. Quite a few were dismissed on the merits. Literally your own link says “YES” in the Decided on Merits column! Did you not read your link? Some of the later cases were not decided on merits because they were filed so late (e.g., suing over a change suggested by Republicans used in the 2016 Wisconsin election to fill in missing zip codes and then used again in 2020, or a change passed by Republican legislators in 2019 and promoted by them to the public in 2020 in Pennsylvania, and only complained about after Biden won). However, some courts did reach the merits and found the claims of Trump campaign and his allies to be completely meritless. Note that Giuliani and his associates, when under oath in court, stated their cases were not fraud cases but then went to press conferences and claimed they were. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics/federal-judge-dismisses-trump-pennsylvania-lawsuit/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics/federal-judge-dismis... > Judge Matthew Brann of the US District Court in the Middle District of Pennsylvania called the Trump campaign's case "Frankenstein's monster" for its poorly stitched together legal theories. > > On Friday, a federal appeals court dealt the Trump campaign's effort another blow, with a Trump-appointed judge writing in a scathing opinion that the campaign's lawsuit lacked proof and that its allegations in Pennsylvania "have no merit."
- aw1621107 6y ago
  That link contradicts you. If you take its contents at face value, there were multiple cases decided on merits. If anything, I can see the potential for an argument to be made that that that site's definition of "decided on merits" is too narrow. For example, depositions were submitted in Law v. Whitmer, significant parts of the decision were dedicated specifically to discussing the merits of the case, and the conclusion specifically says that the plaintiffs failed to meet their burden of proof, but that case is listed as "Decided on Merits: NO".
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    Yeah, there is a sense in which dismissal for “failure to state a claim” (which is very common for the Trump cases, often alongside other grounds like laches and/or lack of standing) is “procedural”, but it definitely and unequivocally amounts to a finding on the merits, since it is literally “does the plaintiff allege the actual elements of an offense, with specific alleged factual bases, and profer evidence which would suffice, if not countered, to prove each”. If you lose on that, it is exactly the court say that “ignoring everything else, if you went to trial, presented everything you say you have, and the defendant’s legal team slept through your whole presentation and then decided not to present a case of their own, you would still lose”.
    - throwaway12992 6y ago
      There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these. There was statistical and/or witness evidence that looking more closely at dominion machines and/or ballots was warranted. However, the only way to actually be allowed to look was during discovery ... which required a suit to actually be heard rather than dismissed. So you don't get to go looking for evidence because you are told you don't have any evidence. I remember this county being an early catch that angered many on the right, where people actually made an effort to recount. I wonder how many here are aware of it? https://www.westernjournal.com/michigan-recount-confirms-trump-won-county-went-biden/ https://www.westernjournal.com/michigan-recount-confirms-tru... We are told by the "fact check" websites that we may (and must) disregard the conclusions [2] that Navid Keshavarz-Nia [1] swore an affidavit to, because there is no proof. But how can we get such proof without the cases actually being heard? Left leaning people in general, and HN posters in particular have a disdain for those who make up the non-urban, non-coastal heart of the USA. But wouldn't it have been better to allow these cases to come to trial, so that the nation could actually determine the facts and begin to heal? [1] https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/4873267/ https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/4873267/ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20201202043332/https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mied.350905/gov.uscourts.mied.350905.1.19.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20201202043332/https://www.court...

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

by Pxtl 6y ago

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

~None~ Many were not discussed on merits. See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.htm http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht... Many are still active (~30) Edit: correction

knowaveragejoe 6y ago
Rightfully so, for the accusers own sake - going to jail for peddling this ridiculous election fraud conspiracy in court isn't in their interest.
Pxtl 6y ago
googles wiseenergy. Oh look it's the successor to WindpowerFacts.info, run by a climate change denier. I'm so ready to trust his opinion on legal matters.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  You think those are fake links to stanford law on his site? The sources are of equal validity regardless of the messenger.
  - Pxtl 6y ago
    Do you regularly find yourself relying on a Gish Gallop of information provided by pathological liars to support your theses?
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      You must have replied to the wrong comment. I didn’t present a thesis.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > You think those are fake links to stanford law on his site? The sources are of equal validity regardless of the messenger. At least the links I checked (the only thing linked is the title of each case) were to the complaints, so they aren’t sources for the data in the table about the outcomes or grounds for the outcomes.
javagram 6y ago
> None were discussed on merits. Incorrect, read some of the cases. Quite a few were dismissed on the merits. Literally your own link says “YES” in the Decided on Merits column! Did you not read your link? Some of the later cases were not decided on merits because they were filed so late (e.g., suing over a change suggested by Republicans used in the 2016 Wisconsin election to fill in missing zip codes and then used again in 2020, or a change passed by Republican legislators in 2019 and promoted by them to the public in 2020 in Pennsylvania, and only complained about after Biden won). However, some courts did reach the merits and found the claims of Trump campaign and his allies to be completely meritless. Note that Giuliani and his associates, when under oath in court, stated their cases were not fraud cases but then went to press conferences and claimed they were. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics/federal-judge-dismisses-trump-pennsylvania-lawsuit/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/21/politics/federal-judge-dismis... > Judge Matthew Brann of the US District Court in the Middle District of Pennsylvania called the Trump campaign's case "Frankenstein's monster" for its poorly stitched together legal theories. > > On Friday, a federal appeals court dealt the Trump campaign's effort another blow, with a Trump-appointed judge writing in a scathing opinion that the campaign's lawsuit lacked proof and that its allegations in Pennsylvania "have no merit."
aw1621107 6y ago
That link contradicts you. If you take its contents at face value, there were multiple cases decided on merits. If anything, I can see the potential for an argument to be made that that that site's definition of "decided on merits" is too narrow. For example, depositions were submitted in Law v. Whitmer, significant parts of the decision were dedicated specifically to discussing the merits of the case, and the conclusion specifically says that the plaintiffs failed to meet their burden of proof, but that case is listed as "Decided on Merits: NO".
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Yeah, there is a sense in which dismissal for “failure to state a claim” (which is very common for the Trump cases, often alongside other grounds like laches and/or lack of standing) is “procedural”, but it definitely and unequivocally amounts to a finding on the merits, since it is literally “does the plaintiff allege the actual elements of an offense, with specific alleged factual bases, and profer evidence which would suffice, if not countered, to prove each”. If you lose on that, it is exactly the court say that “ignoring everything else, if you went to trial, presented everything you say you have, and the defendant’s legal team slept through your whole presentation and then decided not to present a case of their own, you would still lose”.
  - throwaway12992 6y ago
    There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these. There was statistical and/or witness evidence that looking more closely at dominion machines and/or ballots was warranted. However, the only way to actually be allowed to look was during discovery ... which required a suit to actually be heard rather than dismissed. So you don't get to go looking for evidence because you are told you don't have any evidence. I remember this county being an early catch that angered many on the right, where people actually made an effort to recount. I wonder how many here are aware of it? https://www.westernjournal.com/michigan-recount-confirms-trump-won-county-went-biden/ https://www.westernjournal.com/michigan-recount-confirms-tru... We are told by the "fact check" websites that we may (and must) disregard the conclusions [2] that Navid Keshavarz-Nia [1] swore an affidavit to, because there is no proof. But how can we get such proof without the cases actually being heard? Left leaning people in general, and HN posters in particular have a disdain for those who make up the non-urban, non-coastal heart of the USA. But wouldn't it have been better to allow these cases to come to trial, so that the nation could actually determine the facts and begin to heal? [1] https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/4873267/ https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/4873267/ [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20201202043332/https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mied.350905/gov.uscourts.mied.350905.1.19.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20201202043332/https://www.court...