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Since I voted in Georgia on these machines, the process is the following: - get ID validated & ability to vote - get an initialized smart card - insert in po

Since I voted in Georgia on these machines, the process is the following: - get ID validated & ability to vote - get an initialized smart card - insert in polling machine, fill out stuff - submit, get printout from printer - scan printout into a machine - return smart card At the polling places I was at (we had a runoff), the staff + signage was emphasizing to check results on printout. The printing and the scanning felt terribly wasteful but as it turned out, it became a precious way to audit. The bonus is that the printout is normalized, not some person's handwriting that could be subject to misinterpretation.

pdonis 6y ago
So you take the printout from one machine and insert it into another to be scanned? I agree that would satisfy auditability, since you can look at the printout and make sure it's correct. Were these Dominion voting machines?
- enzanki_ars 6y ago
  In Ohio, we used the same Dominion voting systems with the same process: Poll worker validates proper ID, get ballot code for your precinct, walk to voting system, poll worker enters the precinct, voter validates info on screen, voter votes on the touch screen, system prints out choices, walk to scanner system, vote gets scanned, scanner stores those ballots in it's tray in case need for audit.
  - djrogers 6y ago
    I feel so disconnected from this process here in California - I haven't been asked for ID to vote ever. AFAIK, we're not allowed to verify ID here...
    - CydeWeys 6y ago
      It's a good thing not doing it. ID verification disenfranchises way more people than fraudulent votes prevented.
      - Akronymus 6y ago
        I thought that ID was already basically required to be able to live a acceptable life in the US.
        Bjartr 6y ago
        That isn't mutually exclusive with the idea a non-trivial number of people lack them.
      - pdonis 6y ago
        > ID verification disenfranchises How so? How many eligible voters don't already have government issued IDs?
        jcranmer 6y ago
        The most common government-issued ID is a driver's license, to the point that it can sometimes be hard to get a government ID that isn't a driver's license. So anyone who can't drive has an uphill battle--predominantly blind people, as well as poor people who live in the inner city where car ownership is infeasibly expensive. Another commonish case is tribal reservations, where tribal documentation is usually sufficient, but the state might not consider a tribal ID sufficient to vote. The statistics I've seen for people who lack valid voter ID is somewhere in the region of 10-15%. Unsurprisingly, this tends to be concentrated among groups that tend to be more reliably Democratic than Republican (something like 25% of African Americans lack valid ID), which is why voter ID is often a dog whistle for disenfranchising certain voters.
        enigmo 6y ago
        I wonder why the interested parties don't just offer to pay for ID cards. Seems like this would solve both problems, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious.
        pdonis 6y ago
        > it can sometimes be hard to get a government ID that isn't a driver's license As far as I know every state will issue a picture ID, similar to a driver's license but which doesn't confer driving privileges. to someone who doesn't drive. If the argument is that people who can't drive will find it more difficult to make it to the office that gives out government issued IDs, the obvious solutions are (1) put more of those offices in places like inner cities, convenient to public transportation, and (2) have the political activists who spend so much time complaining about disenfranchisement do some actual work instead and provide people transportation to and from the offices. > the state might not consider a tribal ID sufficient to vote The solution to that is obvious too: either fix the state law or fix the tribal ID requirements so they meet existing state law.
- jffry 6y ago
  I don't know which company makes them, but the machines at my polling site in Washington DC are like this. You fill in your ballot on the machine, which has clear visual feedback as you go along and helps with procedural things like "pick up to 2". When you're done, the machine prints a paper ballot and asks you to inspect it. You then click OK on the machine, take the ballot from your booth over to a separate counting machine, and deposit it there. It's really quite pleasant, there is a strong audit trail, and the machines afford a wide variety of assistive options (large font, headphone jack for audio, different languages, etc) Also I had the option to get a printed ballot and fill it out witih a pen if I wanted to.
pilotneko 6y ago
A very similar process in Tennessee. I'm not sure if the machine was made by Dominion, but I had a chance to review the printout before scanning. The printout appeared to pass through the scanner and into a locked container beneath, presumably for actual paper audits.
throwaway31831 6y ago
This isn't how mail-in ballots work, though. For mail-in ballots, a hand-filled ballot is scanned, and if there's a discrepancy it gets corrected then re-printed by an official in a process called adjudication. This is supposed to be done in front of an observer from both parties so security checks like signature matching can be performed, which was not done as evidenced in the Fulton county video footage. Mail-in voting creates the opportunity for mass manufacturing ballots as well as hijacking ballot adjudication processes, especially if you block bipartisan observation to circumvent security checks put in place specifically to mitigate these types of fraud. And "hand recounts" would not uncover these issues. [1] You don't need "widespread" fraud to overturn an election. Biden only won 16% of counties. Only a few key counties need to be targeted to flip a national election. [1] https://billmoyers.com/story/georgias-hand-count-of-2020-ballots-was-no-risk-limiting-audit/ https://billmoyers.com/story/georgias-hand-count-of-2020-bal...
- javagram 6y ago
  Why are you talking about mail-in ballots in a thread about Dominion Voting Systems? Mail-in ballots work the same way they have since 1864. You fill out a paper ballot and mail it back. > Biden only won 16% of counties. Only a few key counties need to be targeted to flip a national election. 16% of counties - when more than half the US population lives in just 4.6% of the counties. Remember that many counties are nearly empty and have few voters. Due to the rural/urban political divide, sparsely populated rural counties typically vote for the GOP in recent elections while densely populated suburbs and cities lean more towards the Democrats. Biden’s numbers in general were similar to Hillary’s in 2016, but he gained ground in the suburbs due to white educated voters fleeing from Trump after the last 4 years. There is no indication that a “few key counties” were targeted - the shift was seen in all 50 states. Compare Texas suburban county votes in 2016 to 2020.
  - throwaway31831 6y ago
    > Why are you talking about mail-in ballots in a thread about Dominion Voting Systems? Mail-in ballots get counted by machines.

pdonis 6y ago

So you take the printout from one machine and insert it into another to be scanned? I agree that would satisfy auditability, since you can look at the printout and make sure it's correct. Were these Dominion voting machines?

enzanki_ars 6y ago
In Ohio, we used the same Dominion voting systems with the same process: Poll worker validates proper ID, get ballot code for your precinct, walk to voting system, poll worker enters the precinct, voter validates info on screen, voter votes on the touch screen, system prints out choices, walk to scanner system, vote gets scanned, scanner stores those ballots in it's tray in case need for audit.
- djrogers 6y ago
  I feel so disconnected from this process here in California - I haven't been asked for ID to vote ever. AFAIK, we're not allowed to verify ID here...
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    It's a good thing not doing it. ID verification disenfranchises way more people than fraudulent votes prevented.
    - Akronymus 6y ago
      I thought that ID was already basically required to be able to live a acceptable life in the US.
      - Bjartr 6y ago
        That isn't mutually exclusive with the idea a non-trivial number of people lack them.
    - pdonis 6y ago
      > ID verification disenfranchises How so? How many eligible voters don't already have government issued IDs?
      - jcranmer 6y ago
        The most common government-issued ID is a driver's license, to the point that it can sometimes be hard to get a government ID that isn't a driver's license. So anyone who can't drive has an uphill battle--predominantly blind people, as well as poor people who live in the inner city where car ownership is infeasibly expensive. Another commonish case is tribal reservations, where tribal documentation is usually sufficient, but the state might not consider a tribal ID sufficient to vote. The statistics I've seen for people who lack valid voter ID is somewhere in the region of 10-15%. Unsurprisingly, this tends to be concentrated among groups that tend to be more reliably Democratic than Republican (something like 25% of African Americans lack valid ID), which is why voter ID is often a dog whistle for disenfranchising certain voters.
        enigmo 6y ago
        I wonder why the interested parties don't just offer to pay for ID cards. Seems like this would solve both problems, but perhaps I'm missing something obvious.
        pdonis 6y ago
        > it can sometimes be hard to get a government ID that isn't a driver's license As far as I know every state will issue a picture ID, similar to a driver's license but which doesn't confer driving privileges. to someone who doesn't drive. If the argument is that people who can't drive will find it more difficult to make it to the office that gives out government issued IDs, the obvious solutions are (1) put more of those offices in places like inner cities, convenient to public transportation, and (2) have the political activists who spend so much time complaining about disenfranchisement do some actual work instead and provide people transportation to and from the offices. > the state might not consider a tribal ID sufficient to vote The solution to that is obvious too: either fix the state law or fix the tribal ID requirements so they meet existing state law.
jffry 6y ago
I don't know which company makes them, but the machines at my polling site in Washington DC are like this. You fill in your ballot on the machine, which has clear visual feedback as you go along and helps with procedural things like "pick up to 2". When you're done, the machine prints a paper ballot and asks you to inspect it. You then click OK on the machine, take the ballot from your booth over to a separate counting machine, and deposit it there. It's really quite pleasant, there is a strong audit trail, and the machines afford a wide variety of assistive options (large font, headphone jack for audio, different languages, etc) Also I had the option to get a printed ballot and fill it out witih a pen if I wanted to.

pilotneko 6y ago

A very similar process in Tennessee. I'm not sure if the machine was made by Dominion, but I had a chance to review the printout before scanning. The printout appeared to pass through the scanner and into a locked container beneath, presumably for actual paper audits.

throwaway31831 6y ago

This isn't how mail-in ballots work, though. For mail-in ballots, a hand-filled ballot is scanned, and if there's a discrepancy it gets corrected then re-printed by an official in a process called adjudication. This is supposed to be done in front of an observer from both parties so security checks like signature matching can be performed, which was not done as evidenced in the Fulton county video footage. Mail-in voting creates the opportunity for mass manufacturing ballots as well as hijacking ballot adjudication processes, especially if you block bipartisan observation to circumvent security checks put in place specifically to mitigate these types of fraud. And "hand recounts" would not uncover these issues. [1] You don't need "widespread" fraud to overturn an election. Biden only won 16% of counties. Only a few key counties need to be targeted to flip a national election. [1] https://billmoyers.com/story/georgias-hand-count-of-2020-ballots-was-no-risk-limiting-audit/ https://billmoyers.com/story/georgias-hand-count-of-2020-bal...

javagram 6y ago
Why are you talking about mail-in ballots in a thread about Dominion Voting Systems? Mail-in ballots work the same way they have since 1864. You fill out a paper ballot and mail it back. > Biden only won 16% of counties. Only a few key counties need to be targeted to flip a national election. 16% of counties - when more than half the US population lives in just 4.6% of the counties. Remember that many counties are nearly empty and have few voters. Due to the rural/urban political divide, sparsely populated rural counties typically vote for the GOP in recent elections while densely populated suburbs and cities lean more towards the Democrats. Biden’s numbers in general were similar to Hillary’s in 2016, but he gained ground in the suburbs due to white educated voters fleeing from Trump after the last 4 years. There is no indication that a “few key counties” were targeted - the shift was seen in all 50 states. Compare Texas suburban county votes in 2016 to 2020.
- throwaway31831 6y ago
  > Why are you talking about mail-in ballots in a thread about Dominion Voting Systems? Mail-in ballots get counted by machines.