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Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomati

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't shoot." Include handwritten notes from the survivors to the families / friends. Surely this method (among others) would stand at least a chance...as compared to ~20 years of unfortunate delay in connection.

miohtama 6y ago
Leaving Japan was punishable by death
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
  - Tarsul 6y ago
    in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
    - SECProto 6y ago
      > Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity The second time he went back, it was apparently as part of the group negotiating the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty[1], so it makes sense he wouldn't necessarily fear being killed [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Trea...
kipchak 6y ago
My understanding is that during the period (1600 to 1868) leaving the country, even by accident was punishable by death. better treatment of shipwrecked American sailors was part of the demands of Perry's expedition in the Convention of Kanagawa. >For the Japanese the punishment for leaving the country (and coming back) was death. The Japanese view at the time was that their world was complete and their was no place in it for crude, materialistic and barbaric Westerners. It was one of the few times in modern history that a nation rejected "progress." Punishments were equally harsh for foreigner that arrived in Japan. Thirteen members of a group of Portuguese merchants that arrived in 1640 were executed. The rest returned home with the message: "Think of us no more."[1] [1]http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub107/item504.html http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub107/item504.html [2]https://unseenjapan.com/edo-era-castaways-in-russia/ https://unseenjapan.com/edo-era-castaways-in-russia/
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  That's curious. So did the survivors not know about the perishable by death factor? Otherwise I'd expect that they'd also fight the return in any way possible...
  - Taniwha 6y ago
    I suspect the goal would have been to sneak back home (rather than arrive on a big western sailing ship)
  - kipchak 6y ago
    I would guess they knew what awaited them, but hoped efforts to open the country would be successful and they would be allowed to return. The Manhattan was able to return some sailors to Japan in 1845[1] that shipwrecked in Japanese waters, making the rule seem somewhat flexible. I think an earlier version of the Perry expedition helmed by John Aulick intended to try and return 17 Japanese sailors as a sign of good faith/bargaining tool.[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(1843_ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(1843_ship) [2]https://www.classicsofstrategy.com/2015/07/commodore-perry-opening-japan.html https://www.classicsofstrategy.com/2015/07/commodore-perry-o...
saberdancer 6y ago
If they wanted to get them to shore, they could have thrown anchor at any spot other than next to a fortress armed with guns. Then you row them to the shore and leave. It's not like there was mass surveillance or ability to identify anyone. It's likely the captain had no big incentive to go out of his way for these Japanese so when he wasn't allowed in port, he just left.
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  Good points, I took a deeper look and found this article with more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident > King anchored at a safe distance, out of range of the shore batteries. Men from several small fishing ships boarded the SS Morrison, and sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship. The Morrison sailed away, with little damage. > King then sailed to Kagoshima in Kyūshū.[2] The first day he met some officials there, who took two of the castaways into custody. The following day, a fisherman came alongside and warned the sailors to leave immediately. As the ship was setting its sails, the Japanese opened fire from cannons they had moved to the proximity of the ship during the night. King decided to abandon the mission and returned to Canton with the remaining castaways. ...and eventually: > The nature of the ship's mission became known one year after the event, and this resulted in increased criticism of the Edict. So it sounds like a lot of ignorance collided with the Big Foreign Ship phenomenon and the castaway got caught in the middle. Some lucky, some not so lucky (for now)
  - aasasd 6y ago
    > sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship. That reads like comedy.
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miohtama 6y ago

Leaving Japan was punishable by death

themodelplumber 6y ago
Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
- Tarsul 6y ago
  in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
  - SECProto 6y ago
    > Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity The second time he went back, it was apparently as part of the group negotiating the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty[1], so it makes sense he wouldn't necessarily fear being killed [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Trea...

kipchak 6y ago

My understanding is that during the period (1600 to 1868) leaving the country, even by accident was punishable by death. better treatment of shipwrecked American sailors was part of the demands of Perry's expedition in the Convention of Kanagawa. >For the Japanese the punishment for leaving the country (and coming back) was death. The Japanese view at the time was that their world was complete and their was no place in it for crude, materialistic and barbaric Westerners. It was one of the few times in modern history that a nation rejected "progress." Punishments were equally harsh for foreigner that arrived in Japan. Thirteen members of a group of Portuguese merchants that arrived in 1640 were executed. The rest returned home with the message: "Think of us no more."[1] [1]http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub107/item504.html http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub107/item504.html [2]https://unseenjapan.com/edo-era-castaways-in-russia/ https://unseenjapan.com/edo-era-castaways-in-russia/

themodelplumber 6y ago
That's curious. So did the survivors not know about the perishable by death factor? Otherwise I'd expect that they'd also fight the return in any way possible...
- Taniwha 6y ago
  I suspect the goal would have been to sneak back home (rather than arrive on a big western sailing ship)
- kipchak 6y ago
  I would guess they knew what awaited them, but hoped efforts to open the country would be successful and they would be allowed to return. The Manhattan was able to return some sailors to Japan in 1845[1] that shipwrecked in Japanese waters, making the rule seem somewhat flexible. I think an earlier version of the Perry expedition helmed by John Aulick intended to try and return 17 Japanese sailors as a sign of good faith/bargaining tool.[2] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(1843_ship) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_(1843_ship) [2]https://www.classicsofstrategy.com/2015/07/commodore-perry-opening-japan.html https://www.classicsofstrategy.com/2015/07/commodore-perry-o...

saberdancer 6y ago

If they wanted to get them to shore, they could have thrown anchor at any spot other than next to a fortress armed with guns. Then you row them to the shore and leave. It's not like there was mass surveillance or ability to identify anyone. It's likely the captain had no big incentive to go out of his way for these Japanese so when he wasn't allowed in port, he just left.

themodelplumber 6y ago
Good points, I took a deeper look and found this article with more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_incident > King anchored at a safe distance, out of range of the shore batteries. Men from several small fishing ships boarded the SS Morrison, and sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship. The Morrison sailed away, with little damage. > King then sailed to Kagoshima in Kyūshū.[2] The first day he met some officials there, who took two of the castaways into custody. The following day, a fisherman came alongside and warned the sailors to leave immediately. As the ship was setting its sails, the Japanese opened fire from cannons they had moved to the proximity of the ship during the night. King decided to abandon the mission and returned to Canton with the remaining castaways. ...and eventually: > The nature of the ship's mission became known one year after the event, and this resulted in increased criticism of the Edict. So it sounds like a lot of ignorance collided with the Big Foreign Ship phenomenon and the castaway got caught in the middle. Some lucky, some not so lucky (for now)
- aasasd 6y ago
  > sake and cookies were shared until late in the night. By daybreak, however, cannons had been brought closer to the seaside, and they were again fired at the ship. Hundreds of small boats, each with a small cannon at the front, also started to surround and attack the ship. That reads like comedy.

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