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> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away fro

> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good". How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun... "Is religion important in your daily life" There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt/untrusted governments and high religious importance. Compare the Corruption Perceptions Index 2019 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index] with importance of religion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...] And you don't get an exact line, but there's certainly a trend there. Those with high corruption and relatively low religion are ex Soviet/Commumist (Azerbajan, Ukraine, Russia, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Cuba have <50% religion and >50 corrupt) There's always outliers, like Singapore (70% religious but only 15 corrupt / 85 notcorrupt), but there's a trend https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png

xyzzyz 6y ago
> There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt untrusted governments and high religious importance. Yes, when the system is very corrupt, you need to have some alternative way to build community, cohesion, and stability. In communist Poland, the Church has been the center of the opposition to the communist system. The system has been very corrupt, but people found solace, community and the support in the Church. When John Paul II was elected the Pope, the Polish people were reinvigorated, and rallied around him, creating Solidarity movement etc. The communist system has recognized the power of Church, and fought it viciously: for example, it murdered Jerzy Popieluszko, a priest famous for his association with Solidarity. This made Polish people rally around the Church even more. After the fall of communism, the Church no longer needed to provide this form of support, and over time, as the civil society has improved, the Church has used the legitimacy and respect it has built during communism to push its own agenda, which in past years has been rather divisive instead of uniting. Religion is not universal social good: its value depends on both the historical circumstance, and the actual content of practice and attitudes of leadership. It can be extremely beneficial, uniting society in ways impossible otherwise, but it can also be extremely damaging, to a deadly degree.
cle 6y ago
It's not hard to imagine confounding variables that could be influencing both, instead of a direct causal relationship.
mgh2 6y ago
Not all religions are created equal, but yes, the trend is prominent. There is some insight here if you dig deeper into the data. 1. https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-17/these-are-most-religious-places-world-and-what-theyre-practicing https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-17/these-are-most-religi... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index 3. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/12/how-do-americans-stand-out-from-the-rest-of-the-world/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/12/how-do-amer...
misterbwong 6y ago
Just as capitalism is an amazing "technology" to maximize monetary value creation, organized religion is quite possibly the best technology ever created for achieving things like person-to-person engagement, building trusted communities, and creating a shared value systems. There are others (community groups, bowling leagues, etc) but none have been as durable and successful. Like other technologies, it can be used for both good and evil and will be very effective doing so. Just throwing this out there: I'm a believer in Christianity and love to connect w/ people about this kinda stuff. If anyone wants to talk more, email is in profile.
rossdavidh 6y ago
The first thing that comes to mind is, if you don't have a high level of trust in the society, the trust fostered by being the same religion is all the more valuable. If you think you can go out into a high-trust society and do just fine, then leaving that religious community your parents raised you in seems low-cost. Also, if high trust drives economic growth, and wealthier societies become less religious, you would get that same pattern. I think to determine which is driving which, you would need to look at the relation between religion now and trust levels in the past, and vice versa.

xyzzyz 6y ago

> There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt untrusted governments and high religious importance. Yes, when the system is very corrupt, you need to have some alternative way to build community, cohesion, and stability. In communist Poland, the Church has been the center of the opposition to the communist system. The system has been very corrupt, but people found solace, community and the support in the Church. When John Paul II was elected the Pope, the Polish people were reinvigorated, and rallied around him, creating Solidarity movement etc. The communist system has recognized the power of Church, and fought it viciously: for example, it murdered Jerzy Popieluszko, a priest famous for his association with Solidarity. This made Polish people rally around the Church even more. After the fall of communism, the Church no longer needed to provide this form of support, and over time, as the civil society has improved, the Church has used the legitimacy and respect it has built during communism to push its own agenda, which in past years has been rather divisive instead of uniting. Religion is not universal social good: its value depends on both the historical circumstance, and the actual content of practice and attitudes of leadership. It can be extremely beneficial, uniting society in ways impossible otherwise, but it can also be extremely damaging, to a deadly degree.

cle 6y ago

It's not hard to imagine confounding variables that could be influencing both, instead of a direct causal relationship.

mgh2 6y ago

Not all religions are created equal, but yes, the trend is prominent. There is some insight here if you dig deeper into the data. 1. https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-17/these-are-most-religious-places-world-and-what-theyre-practicing https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-17/these-are-most-religi... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index 3. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/12/how-do-americans-stand-out-from-the-rest-of-the-world/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/12/how-do-amer...

misterbwong 6y ago

Just as capitalism is an amazing "technology" to maximize monetary value creation, organized religion is quite possibly the best technology ever created for achieving things like person-to-person engagement, building trusted communities, and creating a shared value systems. There are others (community groups, bowling leagues, etc) but none have been as durable and successful. Like other technologies, it can be used for both good and evil and will be very effective doing so. Just throwing this out there: I'm a believer in Christianity and love to connect w/ people about this kinda stuff. If anyone wants to talk more, email is in profile.

rossdavidh 6y ago

The first thing that comes to mind is, if you don't have a high level of trust in the society, the trust fostered by being the same religion is all the more valuable. If you think you can go out into a high-trust society and do just fine, then leaving that religious community your parents raised you in seems low-cost. Also, if high trust drives economic growth, and wealthier societies become less religious, you would get that same pattern. I think to determine which is driving which, you would need to look at the relation between religion now and trust levels in the past, and vice versa.