6 ms·

When the poors see their standard of living decline (exporting jobs, expensive real estate, shitty schools, ineffective government) all while the rich get riche

When the poors see their standard of living decline (exporting jobs, expensive real estate, shitty schools, ineffective government) all while the rich get richer, yeah, the basic social contract between the classes evaporates. You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large. Society only works if the different classes trust each other not to screw each other out of existence. We're seeing this in all the rich countries now- a generation of youngsters are realizing that a middle class existence may not exist for them. Even in Europe, which is more egalitarian, things aren't looking as rosy as they used to be. And of course in poorer countries with high birth rates, we already see turmoil as young angry men realize they are destined for a life of poverty while their government enriches itself. EDIT: I think the guy who started Huawei said something to the effect of when you are a millionaire, you only care about yourself, but when you are a billionaire, you are all the sudden responsible for a lot of people. I wish that attitude permeated our business schools and boardrooms. The amount of people from top business schools who parrot "Always do the right thing" and then proceed to sell their own grandmother down the street blows my mind.

yrimaxi 6y ago
> EDIT: I think the guy who started Huawei said something to the effect of when you are a millionaire, you only care about yourself, but when you are a billionaire, you are all the sudden responsible for a lot of people. I wish that attitude permeated our business schools and boardrooms. That’s what the poors need; noblesse oblige oligarchy.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  We already have an oligarchy. They control the government, and can get laws passed the poors cannot. What purpose should they serve, ideally? - focus just on investment and profit - improve society ie noblesse oblige - compete for public honor, ie holding high office I'm not suggesting their is one answer, but given the rich hold such sway over government, I definitely don't think they can sit back and enjoy their high tariff burgundy while we have riots in the streets, first from the left and now the right.
  - yrimaxi 6y ago
    You went from Eugene Debbs to fairytale-spinning court jester in the span of four paragraphs. That’s impressive.
- yehaaa 6y ago
  So taxes basically. Or should this group be trusted to act out of the goodness of their hearts?
mcguire 6y ago
"You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large." On the contrary, if you don't trust your neighbor, you have no basis for trusting anyone. It's the foundation for any other trust relationships. As for the relationships between classes, that also relies on trust in things larger than classes: trust in the legal and social framework.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Measuring trust requires a threat model of sorts. I trust my neighbors not to steal my stuff. I don't trust them not to narc on me. If they do narc on my I trust the city to realize that's a dumb use of resources. But I don't trust the state to be so smart. How often have you heard something along the lines of "I'm not worried my kids will be kidnapped, I'm worried some jerk will call the cops if I let them walk to the park on their own"?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
koonsolo 6y ago
Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? I don't believe we have more inequality now than 100 years ago, or anything before that.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  Look back 50 years, not 100 years. We're facing a situation where the standard of living is dropping for the young generation. - huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers - productivity wage-gap: http://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-productivity/ http://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-product... - savings gap between millenials and previous generations: https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-saving-habits-less-wealth-versus-boomers-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-saving-habits-le... - white american men's life expectancy dropping, for first time ever: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-american-men-drops-for-a-third-year/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-american-me... - cost of housing in major cities increasing dramatically - opioid epidemic - obesity epidemic - unemployment among the young in Europe is stubbornly high. Qualitatively, you can see nihilism on the rise among the young: https://jeromysonne.com/the-nihilism-of-r-wallstreetbets/ https://jeromysonne.com/the-nihilism-of-r-wallstreetbets/
  - throwaway_4253 6y ago
    > Look back 50 years, not 100 years. This observation is often trotted out, but I'm not sure it's fair. 50 years ago was no picnic, either. We were mired in the Cold War (Vietnam, no less). Nixon was in the White House. There was tons of social unrest (Nixon wrote in his memoirs about the thousands of bomb threats and attempted bombings). Civil rights / racial tensions were extremely high (MLK was assassinated in '68). The 70's were an absolutely terrible economic decade - oil shock and stagflation, anyone? > huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers I recall watching a presentation a few years back on this, but sadly I can't find the link. This appears to be a follow-up on the research, though. (From the Brookings Institute -https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/where_does_all_the_money_go.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjk3PGYv7juAhWnJzQIHRWKDYUQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw12lervq-5L32-T0nfCWgRU https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... In 1970, women entered the workforce, so you would have expected productivity to double, so GDP would have doubled, and thusly everyone's standard of living, right? Instead what happened is all that extra capital drove up costs in housing and healthcare. Credit cards were introduced and the savings rate plummetted. Instead of having tons of extra money, everyone actually wound up in debt instead. (Please note: I'm not blaming women entering the workforce for this phenomenon; it was totally our surrounding economic system) My high level point is that I think young people back then had a lot of reason to feel precarious and not trust in their institutions to act in their interests. We probably suffered a lot for it then, but we did eventually build our way out of it, for at least a short while, even if it feels like we're essentially further down the economic path now. Edit: cleaned up typo and link, sorry

yrimaxi 6y ago

> EDIT: I think the guy who started Huawei said something to the effect of when you are a millionaire, you only care about yourself, but when you are a billionaire, you are all the sudden responsible for a lot of people. I wish that attitude permeated our business schools and boardrooms. That’s what the poors need; noblesse oblige oligarchy.

medium_burrito 6y ago
We already have an oligarchy. They control the government, and can get laws passed the poors cannot. What purpose should they serve, ideally? - focus just on investment and profit - improve society ie noblesse oblige - compete for public honor, ie holding high office I'm not suggesting their is one answer, but given the rich hold such sway over government, I definitely don't think they can sit back and enjoy their high tariff burgundy while we have riots in the streets, first from the left and now the right.
- yrimaxi 6y ago
  You went from Eugene Debbs to fairytale-spinning court jester in the span of four paragraphs. That’s impressive.
yehaaa 6y ago
So taxes basically. Or should this group be trusted to act out of the goodness of their hearts?

mcguire 6y ago

"You may trust your neighbor, but that has zero bearing on society at large." On the contrary, if you don't trust your neighbor, you have no basis for trusting anyone. It's the foundation for any other trust relationships. As for the relationships between classes, that also relies on trust in things larger than classes: trust in the legal and social framework.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Measuring trust requires a threat model of sorts. I trust my neighbors not to steal my stuff. I don't trust them not to narc on me. If they do narc on my I trust the city to realize that's a dumb use of resources. But I don't trust the state to be so smart. How often have you heard something along the lines of "I'm not worried my kids will be kidnapped, I'm worried some jerk will call the cops if I let them walk to the park on their own"?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

koonsolo 6y ago

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? I don't believe we have more inequality now than 100 years ago, or anything before that.

medium_burrito 6y ago
Look back 50 years, not 100 years. We're facing a situation where the standard of living is dropping for the young generation. - huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers - productivity wage-gap: http://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-productivity/ http://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-product... - savings gap between millenials and previous generations: https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-saving-habits-less-wealth-versus-boomers-2020-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-saving-habits-le... - white american men's life expectancy dropping, for first time ever: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-american-men-drops-for-a-third-year/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-american-me... - cost of housing in major cities increasing dramatically - opioid epidemic - obesity epidemic - unemployment among the young in Europe is stubbornly high. Qualitatively, you can see nihilism on the rise among the young: https://jeromysonne.com/the-nihilism-of-r-wallstreetbets/ https://jeromysonne.com/the-nihilism-of-r-wallstreetbets/
- throwaway_4253 6y ago
  > Look back 50 years, not 100 years. This observation is often trotted out, but I'm not sure it's fair. 50 years ago was no picnic, either. We were mired in the Cold War (Vietnam, no less). Nixon was in the White House. There was tons of social unrest (Nixon wrote in his memoirs about the thousands of bomb threats and attempted bombings). Civil rights / racial tensions were extremely high (MLK was assassinated in '68). The 70's were an absolutely terrible economic decade - oil shock and stagflation, anyone? > huge increase in labor supply: outsourcing, women entering workforce in large numbers I recall watching a presentation a few years back on this, but sadly I can't find the link. This appears to be a follow-up on the research, though. (From the Brookings Institute -https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/where_does_all_the_money_go.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjk3PGYv7juAhWnJzQIHRWKDYUQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw12lervq-5L32-T0nfCWgRU https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... In 1970, women entered the workforce, so you would have expected productivity to double, so GDP would have doubled, and thusly everyone's standard of living, right? Instead what happened is all that extra capital drove up costs in housing and healthcare. Credit cards were introduced and the savings rate plummetted. Instead of having tons of extra money, everyone actually wound up in debt instead. (Please note: I'm not blaming women entering the workforce for this phenomenon; it was totally our surrounding economic system) My high level point is that I think young people back then had a lot of reason to feel precarious and not trust in their institutions to act in their interests. We probably suffered a lot for it then, but we did eventually build our way out of it, for at least a short while, even if it feels like we're essentially further down the economic path now. Edit: cleaned up typo and link, sorry