9 ms·

Otokichi

262 points by Thevet 6y ago

inglor_cz 6y ago
Is there anybody who could confirm that even castaways were subject to death penalty upon return to the shogunate? That sounds really cruel.
- jedimastert 6y ago
  Presumably it would have been assumed they were lying to avoid death.
- beering 6y ago
  There was another castaway who eventually did return to Japan and was made a samurai because of his English skills and potential utility to the government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakahama_Manjir%C5%8D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakahama_Manjir%C5%8D Otokichi's Wikipedia article also indicates that he was given permission to live in Japan again.
- Clewza313 6y ago
  Yes, this was a well-known part of the Sakoku policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku Having heard what had happened in much of the rest of Asia, the shoguns were extremely concerned about Christian proselytizing, and this was their extreme but effective way of making it impossible. All local Christian converts were also put to death.
- mattigames 6y ago
  Cruelty is the second name of humanity, with Japan creating many such events such as the Nanjing Massacre (also known as the Rape of Nanjing) where they killed over 200.000 Chinese people and raped over 80.000 women, and I quote "many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, and nail them alive to walls, Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons their mothers, as other family members watched[...] So sickening was the spectacle that even Nazis in the city were horrified, one proclaiming the massacre to be the work of bestial machinery"
nnf 6y ago
It is endlessly fascinating to me to contemplate how much the world has changed in a relatively short period of time, and specifically with regards to how much time was required for communication between people separated by great distances.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  That's what I was thinking. Even after reaching London, it was two years before someone offered to take them to japan
yudlejoza 6y ago
It just occurred to me, boats have been around way before 1492, and they would drift away by accident, just like in this case, more often than not. Hence, folks from East Asia drifted away and landed on west coast of North America all the time, from time immemorial to 1492, and all of them were designated native/indigenous. Conclusion: Asia to America migration didn't only happen through Bering/Beringia land bridge pre-10000 BC? Question: Has there been any investigation of similarities between west coast indigenous languages and Asian languages, esp. Japanese?
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  You need to also take into account the likelihood of them surviving the trip and reaching a shore. It has likely been an extremely minute amount of people who would have done this, almost certainly too insignificant to influence the culture or genes in any way.
- tpmx 6y ago
  Ship building technology development is an important factor you didn't factor in. You'd need a ship that can survive crossing the pacific and also enough rations of food to survive the trip. In this case they also used some desalination tech to survive those 14 months, per the article. Edit: More details: https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 > The crew had an adequate food supply (rice from the cargo, supplemented with fish and an occasional seagull). They could collect rainwater for drinking. They probably had on board a device called a ranbiki, normally used to brew sake, which they could have used to desalinate water from the sea. They also could have distilled saltwater simply by boiling it. But they had no source of vitamin C. By the time the ship washed ashore near Cape Flattery on a wintery day in 1834, there were only three survivors. Most of their crewmates had died of scurvy. (That essay seems to have a lot of other interesting details, by the way.)
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    From the essay you linked: "Traces of Japan were not entirely unknown in the Northwest. More than 1,000 Japanese ships are estimated to have disappeared during the Exclusion Era (1633-1854). Most presumably sank in storms, but iron fittings and other remnants of some of those ships washed up on the Northwest coast over time. A few drifted to coastal areas farther south with survivors on board. According to historian Frederik L. Schodt, at least 34 Japanese sailors reached the shores of North America or Mexico on disabled ships between 1806 and 1852. One of the best known cases involved the Tokujomaru, which ran aground near Santa Barbara, California, in 1813, with three survivors out of a crew of 14. But until the Hojunmaru, there is no record of the presence of any Japanese, sailors or otherwise, in what is now the state of Washington."
FactCore 6y ago
A very interesting little story. I wasn't surprised when I saw that a movie about this had been made in the 80s. Although, I was also not surprised to see a healthy amount of [citation needed]. Oh well, no good story comes without a bit of embellishment, right?
keiferski 6y ago
Fascinating story. I had to dig a bit but I found the Johnny Cash film mentioned in the article: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So&t=18s https://youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So&t=18s
- monkeypilot 6y ago
  Is it any good? What's with all the dislikes?
  - exikyut 6y ago
    Meta question: > What's with all the dislikes? Assuming that you're referring to the GP, I'm curious how you're determining it's disliked-ness. It's not grey for me. I don't think some massive karma level confers ability to see comment scores, either.
    - keiferski 6y ago
      My HN comment has 8 upvotes. I assume they meant the dislikes on the YouTube video itself (362 likes, 103 dislikes.)
      - exikyut 6y ago
        Facepalm. Thanks.
themodelplumber 6y ago
Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't shoot." Include handwritten notes from the survivors to the families / friends. Surely this method (among others) would stand at least a chance...as compared to ~20 years of unfortunate delay in connection.
- miohtama 6y ago
  Leaving Japan was punishable by death
  - themodelplumber 6y ago
    Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
    - Tarsul 6y ago
      in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
      - SECProto 6y ago
        > Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity The second time he went back, it was apparently as part of the group negotiating the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty[1], so it makes sense he wouldn't necessarily fear being killed [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Trea...
- 6y ago
ksm1717 6y ago
I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats
- jcpenny1 6y ago
  Glad I am not the only one who thought this.
- jabbany 6y ago
  To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
  - hnuser123456 6y ago
    That's expectancy at birth. If you made it to 20, you were likely to make it to 60, even in the mid 1800s. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/articles/howhaslifeexpectancychangedovertime/2015-09-09 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...
  - setr 6y ago
    average life expectancy is a trap -- the distribution is binomial. People tended to either die early, as infants, or live to an average 60.[0] Specifically, if you were age 0, you have an expected lifespan of 40, but by age 10, you have an expected lifespan of 60. Today expected lifespan after reaching age 10 is better, but not as extreme as the average tells you: you'd expect to hit to live to 77. [1] So most people who were actually wandering out of their cribs would have found 60 to be a perfectly normal age; and 40 would still be middle aged -- the past wasn't that much different from the present :) you just wouldn't expect to see great-grandfathers as often (but at the same time, you don't see many today because the average first child-birth age has shifted upwards as well[2]) [0] https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011 https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expecta... [1] https://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-the-1800s-not-as-bad-as-reported/ https://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-... [2] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-Average-maternal-age-at-childbirth-1901-2014-and-at-first-childbirth-1960-2014-B_fig1_285584957 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-Average-maternal-age-a...
baxtr 6y ago
I would love to see that life story in a film (any Netflix people around?!). One of the most captivating Wikipedia entries I’ve ever read.
- illwrks 6y ago
  Scorsese put out a film called 'Silence' a few years ago. It's set in that period, stars Liam Neeson, Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver. It's a heavily skewed religious film but very good.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  The article mentions that there's a film from 1983 starring Johnny Cash. It's not even on Netflix DVD but I found it hosted on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So Starts with Japanese audio and has Japanese subtitles, but the film itself is in English.
ticklemyelmo 6y ago
Now I'm not sure if the poster was influenced by this Omnibus episode: https://www.omnibusproject.com/324 https://www.omnibusproject.com/324 or I've been influenced by these episodes: https://www.omnibusproject.com/310 https://www.omnibusproject.com/310 https://www.omnibusproject.com/311 https://www.omnibusproject.com/311
astrange 6y ago
I thought this was going to be one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings like "ikigai" and "tsundoku". > Once in Macau, Otokichi, Kyukichi and Iwakichi were welcomed by Karl Gutzlaff, a German missionary and Chinese translator for the British Government. Gutzlaff, who had views on evangelizing Japan, enthusiastically learned the Japanese language from the trio, and with their help managed to make a translation of the Gospel of John into Japanese.[citation needed] Impressive work of language learning to pick it up from three homesick teenagers. Or maybe not, since there was noone to tell him if he got it wrong.
- exolymph 6y ago
  > one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings ...you mean, the Japanese terms for philosophical concepts relevant to / embedded in their culture? this would be like complaining if Japanese people latched onto "amen" as a statement of completion and finality. uh yeah, the concept is applicable across various different cultural configurations
- krsdcbl 6y ago
  According to a source posted elsewhere in the discussion here (https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 https://www.historylink.org/File/9065), communication might not have been such a difficulty as they had started learning English years before that. > In Macao, the British government handed the sailors over to Karl Gutzlaff, a German missionary and linguist. Gutzlaff continued their training in English and also enlisted their help in translating parts of the bible into Japanese.
- kiddico 6y ago
  Who have you met that thinks tsundoku has a philosophical meaning? It's buying too many books...
aasasd 6y ago
> drifted for 14 months, during which the crew lived on desalinated seawater and rice Doesn't sound like fun.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
The amount of Japanese-centric content on the English wikipedia is quite staggering. It goes to show you that the interest (and/or bias) of the contributors is what will ultimately shape the content of the site.
totalZero 6y ago
> The three castaways were looked after and briefly enslaved by the Makah Indian tribe. Seems a bit brutish to enslave half-dead, washed-up youths.
mobilio 6y ago
Similar story with Russians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_barge_T-36 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_barge_T-36
joelcollinsdc 6y ago
Interesting! Reminds me of this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Guerrero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Guerrero
global-citizen 6y ago
Really interesting read about an interesting person. Thanks HN community for continuing to inspire, intrigue and educate!

262 points by Thevet 6y ago

Is there anybody who could confirm that even castaways were subject to death penalty upon return to the shogunate? That sounds really cruel.

jedimastert 6y ago
Presumably it would have been assumed they were lying to avoid death.
beering 6y ago
There was another castaway who eventually did return to Japan and was made a samurai because of his English skills and potential utility to the government: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakahama_Manjir%C5%8D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakahama_Manjir%C5%8D Otokichi's Wikipedia article also indicates that he was given permission to live in Japan again.
Clewza313 6y ago
Yes, this was a well-known part of the Sakoku policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku Having heard what had happened in much of the rest of Asia, the shoguns were extremely concerned about Christian proselytizing, and this was their extreme but effective way of making it impossible. All local Christian converts were also put to death.
mattigames 6y ago
Cruelty is the second name of humanity, with Japan creating many such events such as the Nanjing Massacre (also known as the Rape of Nanjing) where they killed over 200.000 Chinese people and raped over 80.000 women, and I quote "many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, and nail them alive to walls, Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons their mothers, as other family members watched[...] So sickening was the spectacle that even Nazis in the city were horrified, one proclaiming the massacre to be the work of bestial machinery"

nnf 6y ago

It is endlessly fascinating to me to contemplate how much the world has changed in a relatively short period of time, and specifically with regards to how much time was required for communication between people separated by great distances.

thatguy0900 6y ago
That's what I was thinking. Even after reaching London, it was two years before someone offered to take them to japan

yudlejoza 6y ago

It just occurred to me, boats have been around way before 1492, and they would drift away by accident, just like in this case, more often than not. Hence, folks from East Asia drifted away and landed on west coast of North America all the time, from time immemorial to 1492, and all of them were designated native/indigenous. Conclusion: Asia to America migration didn't only happen through Bering/Beringia land bridge pre-10000 BC? Question: Has there been any investigation of similarities between west coast indigenous languages and Asian languages, esp. Japanese?

tsimionescu 6y ago
You need to also take into account the likelihood of them surviving the trip and reaching a shore. It has likely been an extremely minute amount of people who would have done this, almost certainly too insignificant to influence the culture or genes in any way.
tpmx 6y ago
Ship building technology development is an important factor you didn't factor in. You'd need a ship that can survive crossing the pacific and also enough rations of food to survive the trip. In this case they also used some desalination tech to survive those 14 months, per the article. Edit: More details: https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 > The crew had an adequate food supply (rice from the cargo, supplemented with fish and an occasional seagull). They could collect rainwater for drinking. They probably had on board a device called a ranbiki, normally used to brew sake, which they could have used to desalinate water from the sea. They also could have distilled saltwater simply by boiling it. But they had no source of vitamin C. By the time the ship washed ashore near Cape Flattery on a wintery day in 1834, there were only three survivors. Most of their crewmates had died of scurvy. (That essay seems to have a lot of other interesting details, by the way.)
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  From the essay you linked: "Traces of Japan were not entirely unknown in the Northwest. More than 1,000 Japanese ships are estimated to have disappeared during the Exclusion Era (1633-1854). Most presumably sank in storms, but iron fittings and other remnants of some of those ships washed up on the Northwest coast over time. A few drifted to coastal areas farther south with survivors on board. According to historian Frederik L. Schodt, at least 34 Japanese sailors reached the shores of North America or Mexico on disabled ships between 1806 and 1852. One of the best known cases involved the Tokujomaru, which ran aground near Santa Barbara, California, in 1813, with three survivors out of a crew of 14. But until the Hojunmaru, there is no record of the presence of any Japanese, sailors or otherwise, in what is now the state of Washington."

FactCore 6y ago

A very interesting little story. I wasn't surprised when I saw that a movie about this had been made in the 80s. Although, I was also not surprised to see a healthy amount of [citation needed]. Oh well, no good story comes without a bit of embellishment, right?

keiferski 6y ago

Fascinating story. I had to dig a bit but I found the Johnny Cash film mentioned in the article: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So&t=18s https://youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So&t=18s

monkeypilot 6y ago
Is it any good? What's with all the dislikes?
- exikyut 6y ago
  Meta question: > What's with all the dislikes? Assuming that you're referring to the GP, I'm curious how you're determining it's disliked-ness. It's not grey for me. I don't think some massive karma level confers ability to see comment scores, either.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    My HN comment has 8 upvotes. I assume they meant the dislikes on the YouTube video itself (362 likes, 103 dislikes.)
    - exikyut 6y ago
      Facepalm. Thanks.

themodelplumber 6y ago

Fascinating. Something that made me curious: > There the ship was fired on repeatedly, and King was not able to accomplish his objective to establish diplomatic contact So...why not place a brief message into a few bottles and drop them in the waters around the populated zones? "We have here your citizens named so-and-so, and will return around this date, and then this date + about 12M, to try again. Please don't shoot." Include handwritten notes from the survivors to the families / friends. Surely this method (among others) would stand at least a chance...as compared to ~20 years of unfortunate delay in connection.

miohtama 6y ago
Leaving Japan was punishable by death
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  Was this really the case for castaways caught in storms, who expected to come back?
  - Tarsul 6y ago
    in the wiki article it's stated twice that they feared coming back due to this (once going back only disguised as a Chinese person. Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity). I'd bet it's a question of credibility. E.g. would you risk that the Japanese do not believe you and hence kill you? It's tough.
    - SECProto 6y ago
      > Although the second time he came back it appears he did not hide his identity The second time he went back, it was apparently as part of the group negotiating the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty[1], so it makes sense he wouldn't necessarily fear being killed [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Japanese_Friendship_Trea...
6y ago

ksm1717 6y ago

I think it’s hilarious that the head of the British colony found 3 random Japanese people (2 of which were not even 18) and sent them to England to attempt to use them as trade diplomats

jcpenny1 6y ago
Glad I am not the only one who thought this.
jabbany 6y ago
To be fair, average life expectancy of people around that period (early to mid 1800s) was at best ~40, so "18" would have been basically middle-aged ;-)
- hnuser123456 6y ago
  That's expectancy at birth. If you made it to 20, you were likely to make it to 60, even in the mid 1800s. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/articles/howhaslifeexpectancychangedovertime/2015-09-09 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...
- setr 6y ago
  average life expectancy is a trap -- the distribution is binomial. People tended to either die early, as infants, or live to an average 60.[0] Specifically, if you were age 0, you have an expected lifespan of 40, but by age 10, you have an expected lifespan of 60. Today expected lifespan after reaching age 10 is better, but not as extreme as the average tells you: you'd expect to hit to live to 77. [1] So most people who were actually wandering out of their cribs would have found 60 to be a perfectly normal age; and 40 would still be middle aged -- the past wasn't that much different from the present :) you just wouldn't expect to see great-grandfathers as often (but at the same time, you don't see many today because the average first child-birth age has shifted upwards as well[2]) [0] https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expectancy-age-1850-2011 https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/life-expecta... [1] https://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-the-1800s-not-as-bad-as-reported/ https://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-... [2] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-Average-maternal-age-at-childbirth-1901-2014-and-at-first-childbirth-1960-2014-B_fig1_285584957 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-Average-maternal-age-a...

baxtr 6y ago

I would love to see that life story in a film (any Netflix people around?!). One of the most captivating Wikipedia entries I’ve ever read.

illwrks 6y ago
Scorsese put out a film called 'Silence' a few years ago. It's set in that period, stars Liam Neeson, Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver. It's a heavily skewed religious film but very good.
sixstringtheory 6y ago
The article mentions that there's a film from 1983 starring Johnny Cash. It's not even on Netflix DVD but I found it hosted on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLOFpfjW_So Starts with Japanese audio and has Japanese subtitles, but the film itself is in English.

ticklemyelmo 6y ago

Now I'm not sure if the poster was influenced by this Omnibus episode: https://www.omnibusproject.com/324 https://www.omnibusproject.com/324 or I've been influenced by these episodes: https://www.omnibusproject.com/310 https://www.omnibusproject.com/310 https://www.omnibusproject.com/311 https://www.omnibusproject.com/311

astrange 6y ago

I thought this was going to be one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings like "ikigai" and "tsundoku". > Once in Macau, Otokichi, Kyukichi and Iwakichi were welcomed by Karl Gutzlaff, a German missionary and Chinese translator for the British Government. Gutzlaff, who had views on evangelizing Japan, enthusiastically learned the Japanese language from the trio, and with their help managed to make a translation of the Gospel of John into Japanese.[citation needed] Impressive work of language learning to pick it up from three homesick teenagers. Or maybe not, since there was noone to tell him if he got it wrong.

exolymph 6y ago
> one of those random Japanese words that people pretend have deep philosophical meanings ...you mean, the Japanese terms for philosophical concepts relevant to / embedded in their culture? this would be like complaining if Japanese people latched onto "amen" as a statement of completion and finality. uh yeah, the concept is applicable across various different cultural configurations
krsdcbl 6y ago
According to a source posted elsewhere in the discussion here (https://www.historylink.org/File/9065 https://www.historylink.org/File/9065), communication might not have been such a difficulty as they had started learning English years before that. > In Macao, the British government handed the sailors over to Karl Gutzlaff, a German missionary and linguist. Gutzlaff continued their training in English and also enlisted their help in translating parts of the bible into Japanese.
kiddico 6y ago
Who have you met that thinks tsundoku has a philosophical meaning? It's buying too many books...

aasasd 6y ago

> drifted for 14 months, during which the crew lived on desalinated seawater and rice Doesn't sound like fun.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

The amount of Japanese-centric content on the English wikipedia is quite staggering. It goes to show you that the interest (and/or bias) of the contributors is what will ultimately shape the content of the site.

totalZero 6y ago

> The three castaways were looked after and briefly enslaved by the Makah Indian tribe. Seems a bit brutish to enslave half-dead, washed-up youths.

mobilio 6y ago

Similar story with Russians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_barge_T-36 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_barge_T-36

joelcollinsdc 6y ago

Interesting! Reminds me of this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Guerrero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Guerrero

global-citizen 6y ago

Really interesting read about an interesting person. Thanks HN community for continuing to inspire, intrigue and educate!