7 ms·

The seaplane area in Vancouver stinks during the summer. I am very much looking forward to electrification eliminating that strong diesel smell. If there's en

The seaplane area in Vancouver stinks during the summer. I am very much looking forward to electrification eliminating that strong diesel smell. If there's enough planes transiting you can even see the haze (dozens of seaplanes use that terminal).

eloff 6y ago
They don't run on diesel, but I think the kind of aviation fuel small planes use is pretty nasty. I've also heard it is still leaded, not sure if that's the case here or not. Many of the boats nearby in the marina do use diesel, for some of the large ones, maybe even the high sulfur bunker crude which is nasty stuff.
- Naac 6y ago
  Other than the Hackernews comment from a couple days ago suggesting this, do you have an links to sources saying these seaplanes use leaded fuels? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make sure we're talking about real things and not starting rumors.
  - andrewmunsell 6y ago
    I'm not familiar with the specific model of seaplane referenced here, but 100LL avgas is commonly used in small planes (and the LL stands for low-lead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas
  - phaemon 6y ago
    Apparently they were supposed to be phased out by 2018 but it's been delayed: https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=14754 https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=1...
  - bluGill 6y ago
    100 low-lead is a common aviation fuel. Most small aircraft use it. Piston engines generally use that, while jets of course use jet fuel. There are piston engine that run on jet fuel (often diesel), but they are rare and just starting to come out. I don't know about sea planes though. My guess is they use lead because that is the best educated guess. edit: others are claiming that these planes are mostly turboprops which would then use lead free jet fuel.
  - coryrc 6y ago
    https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help-sink-two-big-pollution-problems https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help... Almost half Kenmore Air's fleet spews lead on us.
  - jacurtis 6y ago
    MOST seaplanes have piston engines that use 100LL AvGas, which is a gasoline with lead in it (the LL stands for "low lead" as opposed to "unleaded" in car gas). The lead keeps airplane engines, especially older ones from knocking. These planes are DHC-2 DeHaviland Beavers, which traditionally do have radial engines that would require leaded gas. So there is some significance to the rumors. BUT... Harbour Air (the airline featured in this article) is a large seaplane airline that have converted all their Beavers to Turbo-Beavers, so they use Turbo-prop engines, which is essentially a jet engine with a propeller on the shaft instead of a fan (turbo-fan is what most commercial jetliners use, these are essentially the same type of engine but using a propeller to convert engine revolutions into propulsion as opposed to a fan). So in this case, Harbour Air's beavers actually use Jetfuel which does NOT have lead in it.
  - outworlder 6y ago
    Yeah, most general aviation planes do. Has a lot to do with infrastructure and certification requirements. You have to modify, then re-certify the engine. Most manufacturers don't want to do that unless there's a clear benefit. Most people would prefer to use standard automotive gasoline. You can see people in the experimental/sports aircraft category rejoicing when they can find a "MoGas" pump.
  - dghlsakjg 6y ago
    I'm unaware of ANY certified piston aircraft that don't use leaded fuel by default. Most fuel farms at airports sell 100 octane leaded fuel by default. It is normally the odd exception that sells unleaded fuel. The piston engine seaplanes will be using leaded fuel (as will any piston powered small plane with the exception of a few homebuilts and trainers). The turbine ones use regular Jet A.
    - biggieshellz 6y ago
      The only one I can think of would be the Rotax 912, which is certified to run on mogas ("motor gas" / unleaded). But as you said, that's more for light sport and trainers.
- tastyfreeze 6y ago
  I worked on a seaplane dock as a teen. Radial engines use AvGas which is high octane gasoline. Turbine engines use Jet A which is a kerosene blend fuel. Most de Havilland Beavers in my area are still radial engines due to the nostalgia that sells to tourists. Most companies have converted their de Havilland Otters to a turbine engine. I have seen turbine Beavers from other areas. You can visually identify the engine by the shape of the plane nose. A radial engine plane has a big, round, blunt nose and sounds like an idling drag racer with a deep glug glug glug noise. A turbine engine plane has a pointy nose and sounds like the high pitch whine of a jet engine.
  - steffan 6y ago
    > still radial engines due to the nostalgia that sells to tourists Given the relatively thin margins in aviation, I think it's probably less about nostalgia and more about the $1M USD price of e.g. a PT-6 turbine
    - tastyfreeze 6y ago
      I am sure that is a consideration. The performance of a turbine Beaver is also not as much of an improvement as a converted Otter. Margins on transportation flights are thin. Margins on flightseeing are not. The company I worked for chartered a Beaver between $600-$700 an hour and a turbine Otter at double that. Seats for 45-minute flightseeing (through a national monument) were priced at $185-$250. 6 pax in an Beaver and 10 in an Otter.
      - canadianfella 6y ago
        Pax?
        Sebguer 6y ago
        Passengers.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      There are no avia piston engines left above 500-600HP today, and 1000+hp are completely unheard off. This is why a lot of radial engine powered planes that are many decades old have no options for new engines if there are no turbine conversion available.
- na85 6y ago
  Jet fuel (which powers the turbine engines that Harbour Air uses) is actually quite similar to Diesel. Some turbines have diesel listed as an approved emergency fuel, particularly military aircraft. You might be thinking of avgas which has lead in it, but turbine engines don't burn avgas.
  - throwaway314158 6y ago
    Don't a lot of older small craft—such as seaplanes—have radial engines?
    - jccooper 6y ago
      Piston engines (running leaded high-octane fuel) in general are common in small aircraft. Radials do exist, but most, I think, are inline engines (usually opposed).
      - TylerE 6y ago
        Nonsense. There are hundreds of DC-3s still flying with 1200hp Twin Wasp radials. Service life of aviation engines is essentially infinite - they just keep rebuilding ‘em. The Russian ASH-62 is still in production, and depending on spec can produce as much as 1100hp.
        baybal2 6y ago
        > The Russian ASH-62 is still in production No, it isn't. The "new" 62 are just old stock, or made from old stock parts, or rebuilt frankenstein engines with some new parts, or are Dongan HS-5 restamped as original 62 to pass the type test. I used to be an aviation fan in my childhood. Tried to build a motoglider, but the process stalled before I moved out of the country.
    - na85 6y ago
      > Don't a lot of older small craft—such as seaplanes—have radial engines? Sure, lots of older aircraft (and lots of modern small aircraft) run on avgas or diesel, whether radial or inline. But Harbour Air's fleet is almost all turbines. I think they have just a single non-turbine aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beaver#Variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beav... >Viking DHC-2T Turbo Beaver >Remanufactured Beavers by Viking Air, upgraded with a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-34 680 hp (507 kW) turboprop engine.
- alfalfasprout 6y ago
  Most internal combustion (that is, non-turboprop or turbojet) aircraft use 100LL (100 octane low-lead) fuel. Here, up to 0.56g/L of lead content is used as an octane booster/anti-knocking agent. Many attempts have been made to remove lead from Avgas but it's fairly difficult since the substitute needs to work with the vast majority of current engines and it needs to be easy to produce and distribute in large quantities around the country. Given the much smaller demand for 100LL (primarily used in general aviation) compared to Jet-A used for turbojet aircraft there hasn't been a big push.
- Maximus9000 6y ago
  They use jet fuel for most of their planes. Here is an environmental report. Jet fuel is basically diesel. See page 4 https://www.harbourair.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Harbour-Air-2017-GHG-Report.pdf https://www.harbourair.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Harbou...
codesnik 6y ago
diesel? I doubt you have jet-a seaplanes there. It's gasoline, (though, the nasty kind, with lead)
- Naac 6y ago
  Other than the Hackernews comment from a couple days ago suggesting this, do you have an links to sources saying these seaplanes use leaded fuels? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make sure we're talking about real things and not starting rumors.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Fuel for small engine (reciprocating engine) planes does indeed usually still contain lead. > Unlike motor gasoline, which has been formulated since the 1970s to allow the use of platinum-content catalytic converters for pollution reduction, the most commonly used grades of avgas still contain tetraethyllead (TEL), a toxic substance used to prevent engine knocking (detonation). There are ongoing experiments aimed at eventually reducing or eliminating the use of TEL in aviation gasoline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas
    - Robotbeat 6y ago
      Kind of interesting, but ethanol has SUPER high octane and could be used for avgas (although as we know with e85 cars, soft goods may need to be changed out). But using a mix of ethanol and gasoline can cause problems with water absorption and phase separation especially in cold conditions.
      - cameldrv 6y ago
        The water absorption and phase separation problems are particularly bad with airplanes because airplanes operate in very cold conditions when they go up to higher altitudes. I think that these problems also would apply to pure ethanol. The other kicker with ethanol is that its energy density is significantly lower, so it would significantly negatively impact the range/payload of every small airplane.
coryrc 6y ago
Stinks and probably full of lead, if they are like Seattle: https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help-sink-two-big-pollution-problems https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help...

eloff 6y ago

They don't run on diesel, but I think the kind of aviation fuel small planes use is pretty nasty. I've also heard it is still leaded, not sure if that's the case here or not. Many of the boats nearby in the marina do use diesel, for some of the large ones, maybe even the high sulfur bunker crude which is nasty stuff.

Naac 6y ago
Other than the Hackernews comment from a couple days ago suggesting this, do you have an links to sources saying these seaplanes use leaded fuels? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make sure we're talking about real things and not starting rumors.
- andrewmunsell 6y ago
  I'm not familiar with the specific model of seaplane referenced here, but 100LL avgas is commonly used in small planes (and the LL stands for low-lead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas
- phaemon 6y ago
  Apparently they were supposed to be phased out by 2018 but it's been delayed: https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=14754 https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=1...
- bluGill 6y ago
  100 low-lead is a common aviation fuel. Most small aircraft use it. Piston engines generally use that, while jets of course use jet fuel. There are piston engine that run on jet fuel (often diesel), but they are rare and just starting to come out. I don't know about sea planes though. My guess is they use lead because that is the best educated guess. edit: others are claiming that these planes are mostly turboprops which would then use lead free jet fuel.
- coryrc 6y ago
  https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help-sink-two-big-pollution-problems https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help... Almost half Kenmore Air's fleet spews lead on us.
- jacurtis 6y ago
  MOST seaplanes have piston engines that use 100LL AvGas, which is a gasoline with lead in it (the LL stands for "low lead" as opposed to "unleaded" in car gas). The lead keeps airplane engines, especially older ones from knocking. These planes are DHC-2 DeHaviland Beavers, which traditionally do have radial engines that would require leaded gas. So there is some significance to the rumors. BUT... Harbour Air (the airline featured in this article) is a large seaplane airline that have converted all their Beavers to Turbo-Beavers, so they use Turbo-prop engines, which is essentially a jet engine with a propeller on the shaft instead of a fan (turbo-fan is what most commercial jetliners use, these are essentially the same type of engine but using a propeller to convert engine revolutions into propulsion as opposed to a fan). So in this case, Harbour Air's beavers actually use Jetfuel which does NOT have lead in it.
- outworlder 6y ago
  Yeah, most general aviation planes do. Has a lot to do with infrastructure and certification requirements. You have to modify, then re-certify the engine. Most manufacturers don't want to do that unless there's a clear benefit. Most people would prefer to use standard automotive gasoline. You can see people in the experimental/sports aircraft category rejoicing when they can find a "MoGas" pump.
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  I'm unaware of ANY certified piston aircraft that don't use leaded fuel by default. Most fuel farms at airports sell 100 octane leaded fuel by default. It is normally the odd exception that sells unleaded fuel. The piston engine seaplanes will be using leaded fuel (as will any piston powered small plane with the exception of a few homebuilts and trainers). The turbine ones use regular Jet A.
  - biggieshellz 6y ago
    The only one I can think of would be the Rotax 912, which is certified to run on mogas ("motor gas" / unleaded). But as you said, that's more for light sport and trainers.
tastyfreeze 6y ago
I worked on a seaplane dock as a teen. Radial engines use AvGas which is high octane gasoline. Turbine engines use Jet A which is a kerosene blend fuel. Most de Havilland Beavers in my area are still radial engines due to the nostalgia that sells to tourists. Most companies have converted their de Havilland Otters to a turbine engine. I have seen turbine Beavers from other areas. You can visually identify the engine by the shape of the plane nose. A radial engine plane has a big, round, blunt nose and sounds like an idling drag racer with a deep glug glug glug noise. A turbine engine plane has a pointy nose and sounds like the high pitch whine of a jet engine.
- steffan 6y ago
  > still radial engines due to the nostalgia that sells to tourists Given the relatively thin margins in aviation, I think it's probably less about nostalgia and more about the $1M USD price of e.g. a PT-6 turbine
  - tastyfreeze 6y ago
    I am sure that is a consideration. The performance of a turbine Beaver is also not as much of an improvement as a converted Otter. Margins on transportation flights are thin. Margins on flightseeing are not. The company I worked for chartered a Beaver between $600-$700 an hour and a turbine Otter at double that. Seats for 45-minute flightseeing (through a national monument) were priced at $185-$250. 6 pax in an Beaver and 10 in an Otter.
    - canadianfella 6y ago
      Pax?
      - Sebguer 6y ago
        Passengers.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    There are no avia piston engines left above 500-600HP today, and 1000+hp are completely unheard off. This is why a lot of radial engine powered planes that are many decades old have no options for new engines if there are no turbine conversion available.
na85 6y ago
Jet fuel (which powers the turbine engines that Harbour Air uses) is actually quite similar to Diesel. Some turbines have diesel listed as an approved emergency fuel, particularly military aircraft. You might be thinking of avgas which has lead in it, but turbine engines don't burn avgas.
- throwaway314158 6y ago
  Don't a lot of older small craft—such as seaplanes—have radial engines?
  - jccooper 6y ago
    Piston engines (running leaded high-octane fuel) in general are common in small aircraft. Radials do exist, but most, I think, are inline engines (usually opposed).
    - TylerE 6y ago
      Nonsense. There are hundreds of DC-3s still flying with 1200hp Twin Wasp radials. Service life of aviation engines is essentially infinite - they just keep rebuilding ‘em. The Russian ASH-62 is still in production, and depending on spec can produce as much as 1100hp.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        > The Russian ASH-62 is still in production No, it isn't. The "new" 62 are just old stock, or made from old stock parts, or rebuilt frankenstein engines with some new parts, or are Dongan HS-5 restamped as original 62 to pass the type test. I used to be an aviation fan in my childhood. Tried to build a motoglider, but the process stalled before I moved out of the country.
  - na85 6y ago
    > Don't a lot of older small craft—such as seaplanes—have radial engines? Sure, lots of older aircraft (and lots of modern small aircraft) run on avgas or diesel, whether radial or inline. But Harbour Air's fleet is almost all turbines. I think they have just a single non-turbine aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beaver#Variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Canada_DHC-2_Beav... >Viking DHC-2T Turbo Beaver >Remanufactured Beavers by Viking Air, upgraded with a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-34 680 hp (507 kW) turboprop engine.
alfalfasprout 6y ago
Most internal combustion (that is, non-turboprop or turbojet) aircraft use 100LL (100 octane low-lead) fuel. Here, up to 0.56g/L of lead content is used as an octane booster/anti-knocking agent. Many attempts have been made to remove lead from Avgas but it's fairly difficult since the substitute needs to work with the vast majority of current engines and it needs to be easy to produce and distribute in large quantities around the country. Given the much smaller demand for 100LL (primarily used in general aviation) compared to Jet-A used for turbojet aircraft there hasn't been a big push.
Maximus9000 6y ago
They use jet fuel for most of their planes. Here is an environmental report. Jet fuel is basically diesel. See page 4 https://www.harbourair.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Harbour-Air-2017-GHG-Report.pdf https://www.harbourair.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Harbou...

codesnik 6y ago

diesel? I doubt you have jet-a seaplanes there. It's gasoline, (though, the nasty kind, with lead)

Naac 6y ago
Other than the Hackernews comment from a couple days ago suggesting this, do you have an links to sources saying these seaplanes use leaded fuels? I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make sure we're talking about real things and not starting rumors.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  Fuel for small engine (reciprocating engine) planes does indeed usually still contain lead. > Unlike motor gasoline, which has been formulated since the 1970s to allow the use of platinum-content catalytic converters for pollution reduction, the most commonly used grades of avgas still contain tetraethyllead (TEL), a toxic substance used to prevent engine knocking (detonation). There are ongoing experiments aimed at eventually reducing or eliminating the use of TEL in aviation gasoline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas
  - Robotbeat 6y ago
    Kind of interesting, but ethanol has SUPER high octane and could be used for avgas (although as we know with e85 cars, soft goods may need to be changed out). But using a mix of ethanol and gasoline can cause problems with water absorption and phase separation especially in cold conditions.
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      The water absorption and phase separation problems are particularly bad with airplanes because airplanes operate in very cold conditions when they go up to higher altitudes. I think that these problems also would apply to pure ethanol. The other kicker with ethanol is that its energy density is significantly lower, so it would significantly negatively impact the range/payload of every small airplane.

coryrc 6y ago

Stinks and probably full of lead, if they are like Seattle: https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help-sink-two-big-pollution-problems https://www.kuow.org/stories/electric-floatplanes-could-help...