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I guess it hasn't occurred to you yet that most people can't afford Teslas and $6 tomatoes even in 1st world countries?

by blub 6y ago

burlesona 6y ago
That’s a needlessly insulting way of disagreeing. My point is not that everyone can afford these things. It’s that, among the people who can, they are consuming _less_ and seeing it as a lifestyle upgrade, not as a lowered standard of living. But you could argue that it is both, since it means less net consumption. This is why “standard of living” arguments are fruitless IMO and “lifestyle” is where we should focus. For something that most first-world folks can afford, look at Apple products. They cost more, so people who buy them necessarily have less money to spend on other things. But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. That’s a lot about perception and social norms, and about things feeling “nice.” If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable as we do worrying about environmental harm, we would make more progress. Maybe a lot more.
- TomSwirly 6y ago
  > But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. What?! > The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable Suppose I told you that the richest 10% of humanity - most of us reading - would have to give up 90% of our consumption? There isn't going to be some "enjoyable" way to give up 90% of our consumption, because most of us are hooked on consumption. Think of humans as a drug addict, where the drug is fossil fuels in specific, and unlimited consumer consumption in general. Withdrawal from the drug isn't going to be "enjoyable" and a lot of people are going to hate it.
  - harimau777 6y ago
    I think that's partially because we've built a society where the only good thing that society provides most people with is consumption. If we want things to change, then society is going to need to change.

I guess it hasn't occurred to you yet that most people can't afford Teslas and $6 tomatoes even in 1st world countries?

by blub 6y ago

I guess it hasn't occurred to you yet that most people can't afford Teslas and $6 tomatoes even in 1st world countries?

That’s a needlessly insulting way of disagreeing. My point is not that everyone can afford these things. It’s that, among the people who can, they are consuming _less_ and seeing it as a lifestyle upgrade, not as a lowered standard of living. But you could argue that it is both, since it means less net consumption. This is why “standard of living” arguments are fruitless IMO and “lifestyle” is where we should focus. For something that most first-world folks can afford, look at Apple products. They cost more, so people who buy them necessarily have less money to spend on other things. But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. That’s a lot about perception and social norms, and about things feeling “nice.” If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable as we do worrying about environmental harm, we would make more progress. Maybe a lot more.

TomSwirly 6y ago
> But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. What?! > The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable Suppose I told you that the richest 10% of humanity - most of us reading - would have to give up 90% of our consumption? There isn't going to be some "enjoyable" way to give up 90% of our consumption, because most of us are hooked on consumption. Think of humans as a drug addict, where the drug is fossil fuels in specific, and unlimited consumer consumption in general. Withdrawal from the drug isn't going to be "enjoyable" and a lot of people are going to hate it.
- harimau777 6y ago
  I think that's partially because we've built a society where the only good thing that society provides most people with is consumption. If we want things to change, then society is going to need to change.