4 ms·

One possibility is that it will never happen and we’re doomed. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that. But how does Tesla sell its cars for double the pri

One possibility is that it will never happen and we’re doomed. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that. But how does Tesla sell its cars for double the price of comparable gas-powered autos? How does Whole Foods sell people on $6 tomatoes? Both of those represent a choice to consume less, since inherently if you spend more money on something than you have to, then you have less money with which to consume other things. Yet nobody buying Whole Foods thinks they are “decreasing their standard of living.” Its the opposite! So the very first thing, if you want to pursue change, is get this idea of “standard of living” out of your head. Think of lifestyle instead. Can you sell people on an alternative lifestyle that results in less consumption? YES. This happens all around us all the time. It doesn’t even have to be glamorous. During the world wars, gas was rationed and slops were collected for pigs... people bought war bonds, etc. Free people can and do rise to meet collective challenges when they are well-led. Right now it’s very hard to argue the west (as a whole) is well-led. But things can change. There is a recipe that has a better chance of success, and historical precedent. So don’t give up hope.

blub 6y ago
I guess it hasn't occurred to you yet that most people can't afford Teslas and $6 tomatoes even in 1st world countries?
- burlesona 6y ago
  That’s a needlessly insulting way of disagreeing. My point is not that everyone can afford these things. It’s that, among the people who can, they are consuming _less_ and seeing it as a lifestyle upgrade, not as a lowered standard of living. But you could argue that it is both, since it means less net consumption. This is why “standard of living” arguments are fruitless IMO and “lifestyle” is where we should focus. For something that most first-world folks can afford, look at Apple products. They cost more, so people who buy them necessarily have less money to spend on other things. But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. That’s a lot about perception and social norms, and about things feeling “nice.” If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable as we do worrying about environmental harm, we would make more progress. Maybe a lot more.
  - TomSwirly 6y ago
    > But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. What?! > The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable Suppose I told you that the richest 10% of humanity - most of us reading - would have to give up 90% of our consumption? There isn't going to be some "enjoyable" way to give up 90% of our consumption, because most of us are hooked on consumption. Think of humans as a drug addict, where the drug is fossil fuels in specific, and unlimited consumer consumption in general. Withdrawal from the drug isn't going to be "enjoyable" and a lot of people are going to hate it.
    - harimau777 6y ago
      I think that's partially because we've built a society where the only good thing that society provides most people with is consumption. If we want things to change, then society is going to need to change.
sk5t 6y ago
> One possibility is that it will never happen and we’re doomed. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that. It's unfortunate, but gosh, there are a whole lot of people on the planet. Something like 8 billion? I mean, that is a really high number for megafauna. People need to eat a lot, pets eat a lot, people want a warm house and hot water and so on. Setting aside cars and air travel and useless consumerism entirely, the energy it takes to provide all this food and heating is just a stupefyingly high amount. It is challenging to imagine people will set aside fossil fuels, raising crops with pesticides, and even procreation until absolutely forced to by external, nonpolitical, non-negotiable factors. Getting wealthy people to spend a little more on things to which they might assign some luxury value / extra quality / better virtue is just spitting into the ocean. People-at-large simply do not live long enough and are not wired to do what's necessary to avoid eventual catastrophe. It'll be "let's try to be comfortable for a few more years while we figure this out," and then the next wave will try the same thing, and so on. Thanks to better living through chemistry, the species has gone from zero to looming disaster within the span of a few individual lifetimes. I guess the good news is, in the long run, the Earth will be just fine.
perl4ever 6y ago
>Both of those represent a choice to consume less There's something wrong with this idea, that spending more on consumption means consuming less. When you spend $20K extra on your Tesla, doesn't it enable that much extra consumption by their employees, stockholders, etc., which in turn has an average carbon intensity or other environmental impact that is roughly in line with anyone in their society? Like, the electric car is green, but the money pays for salary which buys a ham sandwich, which pays for a hog farm, which pays for a diesel tractor, and so on. The green-ness of the first transaction seems to me a fig leaf to avoid the truth that every dollar of consumption has about the same environmental impact in the long run. If the Tesla were not a lot more expensive, then it would be significant that it was green. But people use the concept of externalities as if they were always an infinitely flexible amount and I think it's self-deception. You just can't do what's right for the environment or social justice via conspicuous consumption, and yet virtually nobody endorses that ethic, because then what are you? You're Scrooge. It's simple, and impossible for normal human beings to accept. You consume, you take away from the poor, and you pollute the environment.

blub 6y ago

I guess it hasn't occurred to you yet that most people can't afford Teslas and $6 tomatoes even in 1st world countries?

burlesona 6y ago
That’s a needlessly insulting way of disagreeing. My point is not that everyone can afford these things. It’s that, among the people who can, they are consuming _less_ and seeing it as a lifestyle upgrade, not as a lowered standard of living. But you could argue that it is both, since it means less net consumption. This is why “standard of living” arguments are fruitless IMO and “lifestyle” is where we should focus. For something that most first-world folks can afford, look at Apple products. They cost more, so people who buy them necessarily have less money to spend on other things. But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. That’s a lot about perception and social norms, and about things feeling “nice.” If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable as we do worrying about environmental harm, we would make more progress. Maybe a lot more.
- TomSwirly 6y ago
  > But nobody thinks their standard of living went down because they bought one iPhone instead of two Androids. What?! > The point is I believe it is possible to get people to voluntarily consume less stuff if and when they feel that their quality of life is better as a result. If we put as much energy into thinking of how to make a sustainable low-impact lifestyle enjoyable Suppose I told you that the richest 10% of humanity - most of us reading - would have to give up 90% of our consumption? There isn't going to be some "enjoyable" way to give up 90% of our consumption, because most of us are hooked on consumption. Think of humans as a drug addict, where the drug is fossil fuels in specific, and unlimited consumer consumption in general. Withdrawal from the drug isn't going to be "enjoyable" and a lot of people are going to hate it.
  - harimau777 6y ago
    I think that's partially because we've built a society where the only good thing that society provides most people with is consumption. If we want things to change, then society is going to need to change.

sk5t 6y ago

> One possibility is that it will never happen and we’re doomed. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that. It's unfortunate, but gosh, there are a whole lot of people on the planet. Something like 8 billion? I mean, that is a really high number for megafauna. People need to eat a lot, pets eat a lot, people want a warm house and hot water and so on. Setting aside cars and air travel and useless consumerism entirely, the energy it takes to provide all this food and heating is just a stupefyingly high amount. It is challenging to imagine people will set aside fossil fuels, raising crops with pesticides, and even procreation until absolutely forced to by external, nonpolitical, non-negotiable factors. Getting wealthy people to spend a little more on things to which they might assign some luxury value / extra quality / better virtue is just spitting into the ocean. People-at-large simply do not live long enough and are not wired to do what's necessary to avoid eventual catastrophe. It'll be "let's try to be comfortable for a few more years while we figure this out," and then the next wave will try the same thing, and so on. Thanks to better living through chemistry, the species has gone from zero to looming disaster within the span of a few individual lifetimes. I guess the good news is, in the long run, the Earth will be just fine.

perl4ever 6y ago

>Both of those represent a choice to consume less There's something wrong with this idea, that spending more on consumption means consuming less. When you spend $20K extra on your Tesla, doesn't it enable that much extra consumption by their employees, stockholders, etc., which in turn has an average carbon intensity or other environmental impact that is roughly in line with anyone in their society? Like, the electric car is green, but the money pays for salary which buys a ham sandwich, which pays for a hog farm, which pays for a diesel tractor, and so on. The green-ness of the first transaction seems to me a fig leaf to avoid the truth that every dollar of consumption has about the same environmental impact in the long run. If the Tesla were not a lot more expensive, then it would be significant that it was green. But people use the concept of externalities as if they were always an infinitely flexible amount and I think it's self-deception. You just can't do what's right for the environment or social justice via conspicuous consumption, and yet virtually nobody endorses that ethic, because then what are you? You're Scrooge. It's simple, and impossible for normal human beings to accept. You consume, you take away from the poor, and you pollute the environment.