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Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. --

by nabla9 6y ago

Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. ----- ECHR 021 (2021) 19.01.2021 (Judgment Lacatus v. Switzerland) The penalty imposed on the applicant for begging in public breached the Convention In today’s Chamber judgment 1 in the case of Lăcătuşv. Switzerland (application no. 14065/15) the European Court of Human Rights held, unanimously, that there had been: a violation of Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life)of the European Convention on Human Rights. The case concerned an order for the applicant to pay a fine of 500 Swiss francs (CHF) (approximately 464 euros (EUR)) for begging in public in Geneva, and her detention in a remand prison for five days for failure to pay the fine. The Court observed that the applicant, who was illiterate and came from an extremely poor family, had no work and was not in receipt of social benefits. Begging constituted a means of survival for her. Being in a clearly vulnerable situation, the applicant had had the right, inherent in human dignity, to be able to convey her plight and attempt to meet her basic needs by begging. The Court considered that the penalty imposed on the applicant had not been proportionate either to the aim of combating organised crime or to the aim of protecting the rights of passers-by, residents and shopkeepers. The Court did not subscribe to the Federal Court’s argument that less restrictive measures would not have achieved a comparable result.In the Court’s view, the penalty imposed had infringed the applicant’s human dignity and impaired the very essence of the rights protected by Article 8 of the Convention, and the State had thus overstepped its margin of appreciation in the present case.

oblio 6y ago
This means that anti-panhandling/anti-begging laws will become void soon in several countries. This could lead to some interesting results if it's true that some branches of organized crime use organized begging.
- nabla9 6y ago
  Yes. This is very exiting. The ruling creates real incentives to attack real problems, instead of brushing them out of sight.
  - cxcorp 6y ago
    Unfortunately I would imagine that it's still easier to spread a narrative blaming the EU than to attack the real problems.
    - username90 6y ago
      The beggar was not Switzerland's problem, it was a tourist.
- username90 6y ago
  I doubt it, that court have no enforcement power and Switzerland has direct democracy so isn't easily swayed by rulings like this.
usr1106 6y ago
That sounds like a reasonable decision. After all advertisement is nothing but begging to increase the profit of the advertiser. If I really need to buy something, I'm sure I can do so without advertisement. Advertisement, be it some marketing phone call, someone offering me whatever subscription on the corridor of the mall, and ads making my phone browsing experience super slow are a much bigger nuisance to me than beggars. The amount of various form of soliticing might vary where you live. But forbidding everything that's a nuisance to someone won't be the solution.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  A bit of a jump. I mean I get that you dislike advertising and I agree with you, but equating it to begging is reaching and diluting the discussion with your issue is adding confusion.
  - usr1106 6y ago
    Where is the difference? Businesses charge more than what their costs are, the rest is their profit. Beggars request more than what they deliver, everything is their profit. Still beggars seem to succeed worse. I have no problem with that, but there is no reason to "declare" their business model illegal. If you buy an Apple product you bought a status symbol. If you give to a beggar you bought a warm feeling, that it did not harm you and helped them. Disclaimer: I have never bought an Apple product. I hardly ever give money to beggars. But I do give them food if I happen to carry some. Which could be my supremacy that I don't want the to spend my money on alcohol.
    - nickff 6y ago
      That depends on how you define 'costs'. You seem to be narrowing a business' costs to COGS (cost of goods sold), and disregarding marketing and financing costs which may be critical to reaching or maintaining an economy of scale.
- blub 6y ago
  Your claim would make some sense (not much, but at least some) if companies were panhandling at the train station.
dd_roger 6y ago
> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigners who take advantage of Schengen to come to a rich country only for begging. These people have no legitimity of being here and earn no sympathy from me.
- nabla9 6y ago
  I sure that we both can agree that - illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity. - feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy. ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-voters-reject-bid-to-curb-eu-freedom-of-movement/a-55068173 https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-voters-reject-bid-to-curb-eu-fre... >Swiss voters on Sunday overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to limit the free movement of people and immigration from the European Union.
  - dd_roger 6y ago
    Romania isn't in Schengen so yes, they are illegitimate. But you're the only one talking about Roma here. What should be taken into account for policy making is the interest of the country's citizens (and non-national legal residents to a lesser extent), not "begging tourists".
    - detaro 6y ago
      Freedom of movement also applies to citizens of non-Schengen EU countries.
  - zajio1am 6y ago
    > Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Note that freedom of movevement inside EU/EEA is not unrestricted (like, say, inside USA), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Rights_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Rights_Directive : > To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights: > - working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), > - working as a self-employed person, > - studying, > - being self-sufficient or retired.
Youden 6y ago
I agree with the sentiment but based on the text of the ruling, I can't agree with the ruling itself [0]. Missing from your summary is: - "The applicant, Violeta-Sibianca Lăcătuş, is a Romanian national who was born in 1992 and lives in Bistrita-Nasaud (Romania)." - "In 2011 Ms Lăcătuş, who was unable to find work, began asking for charity in Geneva." Why was somebody who "lives in" Romania begging in Geneva? Would she not have received social benefits in Romania? This looks like a perverse kind of tourism. Refugees and asylum seekers I can understand but Romania isn't a warzone or dictatorship, it's an EU member state. And I think "decriminalizes begging" is a bit hyperbolic. The court did set some precedent but they were also clear that a critical factor in the ruling was that this woman was in a situation where she genuinely needed to beg in order to survive. [0]: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&id=003-6910043-9279633&filename=Judgment%20Lacatus%20v.%20Switzerland%20-%20sanction%20imposed%20for%20begging%20on%20the%20public%20highway%20violated%20the%20Convention.pdf https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&...
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  > Why was somebody who "lives in" Romania begging in Geneva? Would she not have received social benefits in Romania? This looks like a perverse kind of tourism. Refugees and asylum seekers I can understand but Romania isn't a warzone or dictatorship, it's an EU member state. Social benefits in Romania are miserable compared to other EU countries. And cost of living in the cities is going up due to business booming. I've seen families with kids sleep on the streets there. It's really sad. A well educated retired teacher who was begging in Bucharest whom I spoke to for an hour explained it to me. She was very smart and well aware of world politics (and excellent English) but she just couldn't make ends meet. Definitely not an alcoholic or someone 'who doesn't care enough to get a job'. It's the old people that are really in trouble as they lack the skills to work in this modern world and their pensions apparently are worse than in the communist days (taking rent increases / cost of living inflation into account). Many jobs were moved from public sector to private and their pensions evaporated as a result. Having said that, the young people do really well in Romania, they get good education and all the chances they need. Business is booming especially callcenters because Romanians generally excel at languages. I wish the EU would start imposing minimum standards to welfare because the old generation there is really getting left behind. I saw people in the flat beside our fancy office who had no windows but just plastic bags hanging in their flat, in -15 C. While outside the Audi's and BMWs from the upper class queue up and the young people are the new middle class, the old are just watching it all pass them by. The gains of the new system aren't divided fairly. I'm surprised this 28-year-old needed to beg though, their age group have the best chances.
eznzt 6y ago
> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Equating begging with being poor is wrong. Bothering others is not a human right.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  > Bothering others is not a human right. The ruiling doesn't mention bothering others. That was something you introduced to the conversation, just so you could dismiss it.
  - swebs 6y ago
    Roma begging in Europe is a lot more aggressive compared to the US where people usually just sit against the wall with a sign. They usually stop you from walking down the street and refuse to take no for an answer the first few times. And it repeats every single day if they set up near your work or apartment. It can also often be step 1 of a pickpocketing scam. Its not surprising that people were bothered enough to make this a law in the first place.
    - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
      That's helpful perspective. Thanks.
blub 6y ago
While this might seem like a victory for human dignity, it's not, it's just going to piss off the locals more and make them dislike foreigners, especially those from certain countries.

by nabla9 6y ago

oblio 6y ago

This means that anti-panhandling/anti-begging laws will become void soon in several countries. This could lead to some interesting results if it's true that some branches of organized crime use organized begging.

nabla9 6y ago
Yes. This is very exiting. The ruling creates real incentives to attack real problems, instead of brushing them out of sight.
- cxcorp 6y ago
  Unfortunately I would imagine that it's still easier to spread a narrative blaming the EU than to attack the real problems.
  - username90 6y ago
    The beggar was not Switzerland's problem, it was a tourist.
username90 6y ago
I doubt it, that court have no enforcement power and Switzerland has direct democracy so isn't easily swayed by rulings like this.

usr1106 6y ago

That sounds like a reasonable decision. After all advertisement is nothing but begging to increase the profit of the advertiser. If I really need to buy something, I'm sure I can do so without advertisement. Advertisement, be it some marketing phone call, someone offering me whatever subscription on the corridor of the mall, and ads making my phone browsing experience super slow are a much bigger nuisance to me than beggars. The amount of various form of soliticing might vary where you live. But forbidding everything that's a nuisance to someone won't be the solution.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
A bit of a jump. I mean I get that you dislike advertising and I agree with you, but equating it to begging is reaching and diluting the discussion with your issue is adding confusion.
- usr1106 6y ago
  Where is the difference? Businesses charge more than what their costs are, the rest is their profit. Beggars request more than what they deliver, everything is their profit. Still beggars seem to succeed worse. I have no problem with that, but there is no reason to "declare" their business model illegal. If you buy an Apple product you bought a status symbol. If you give to a beggar you bought a warm feeling, that it did not harm you and helped them. Disclaimer: I have never bought an Apple product. I hardly ever give money to beggars. But I do give them food if I happen to carry some. Which could be my supremacy that I don't want the to spend my money on alcohol.
  - nickff 6y ago
    That depends on how you define 'costs'. You seem to be narrowing a business' costs to COGS (cost of goods sold), and disregarding marketing and financing costs which may be critical to reaching or maintaining an economy of scale.
blub 6y ago
Your claim would make some sense (not much, but at least some) if companies were panhandling at the train station.

dd_roger 6y ago

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigners who take advantage of Schengen to come to a rich country only for begging. These people have no legitimity of being here and earn no sympathy from me.

nabla9 6y ago
I sure that we both can agree that - illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity. - feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy. ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-voters-reject-bid-to-curb-eu-freedom-of-movement/a-55068173 https://www.dw.com/en/swiss-voters-reject-bid-to-curb-eu-fre... >Swiss voters on Sunday overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to limit the free movement of people and immigration from the European Union.
- dd_roger 6y ago
  Romania isn't in Schengen so yes, they are illegitimate. But you're the only one talking about Roma here. What should be taken into account for policy making is the interest of the country's citizens (and non-national legal residents to a lesser extent), not "begging tourists".
  - detaro 6y ago
    Freedom of movement also applies to citizens of non-Schengen EU countries.
- zajio1am 6y ago
  > Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Note that freedom of movevement inside EU/EEA is not unrestricted (like, say, inside USA), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Rights_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Rights_Directive : > To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights: > - working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), > - working as a self-employed person, > - studying, > - being self-sufficient or retired.

Youden 6y ago

I agree with the sentiment but based on the text of the ruling, I can't agree with the ruling itself [0]. Missing from your summary is: - "The applicant, Violeta-Sibianca Lăcătuş, is a Romanian national who was born in 1992 and lives in Bistrita-Nasaud (Romania)." - "In 2011 Ms Lăcătuş, who was unable to find work, began asking for charity in Geneva." Why was somebody who "lives in" Romania begging in Geneva? Would she not have received social benefits in Romania? This looks like a perverse kind of tourism. Refugees and asylum seekers I can understand but Romania isn't a warzone or dictatorship, it's an EU member state. And I think "decriminalizes begging" is a bit hyperbolic. The court did set some precedent but they were also clear that a critical factor in the ruling was that this woman was in a situation where she genuinely needed to beg in order to survive. [0]: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&id=003-6910043-9279633&filename=Judgment%20Lacatus%20v.%20Switzerland%20-%20sanction%20imposed%20for%20begging%20on%20the%20public%20highway%20violated%20the%20Convention.pdf https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/app/conversion/pdf/?library=ECHR&...

GekkePrutser 6y ago
> Why was somebody who "lives in" Romania begging in Geneva? Would she not have received social benefits in Romania? This looks like a perverse kind of tourism. Refugees and asylum seekers I can understand but Romania isn't a warzone or dictatorship, it's an EU member state. Social benefits in Romania are miserable compared to other EU countries. And cost of living in the cities is going up due to business booming. I've seen families with kids sleep on the streets there. It's really sad. A well educated retired teacher who was begging in Bucharest whom I spoke to for an hour explained it to me. She was very smart and well aware of world politics (and excellent English) but she just couldn't make ends meet. Definitely not an alcoholic or someone 'who doesn't care enough to get a job'. It's the old people that are really in trouble as they lack the skills to work in this modern world and their pensions apparently are worse than in the communist days (taking rent increases / cost of living inflation into account). Many jobs were moved from public sector to private and their pensions evaporated as a result. Having said that, the young people do really well in Romania, they get good education and all the chances they need. Business is booming especially callcenters because Romanians generally excel at languages. I wish the EU would start imposing minimum standards to welfare because the old generation there is really getting left behind. I saw people in the flat beside our fancy office who had no windows but just plastic bags hanging in their flat, in -15 C. While outside the Audi's and BMWs from the upper class queue up and the young people are the new middle class, the old are just watching it all pass them by. The gains of the new system aren't divided fairly. I'm surprised this 28-year-old needed to beg though, their age group have the best chances.

eznzt 6y ago

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Equating begging with being poor is wrong. Bothering others is not a human right.

WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
> Bothering others is not a human right. The ruiling doesn't mention bothering others. That was something you introduced to the conversation, just so you could dismiss it.
- swebs 6y ago
  Roma begging in Europe is a lot more aggressive compared to the US where people usually just sit against the wall with a sign. They usually stop you from walking down the street and refuse to take no for an answer the first few times. And it repeats every single day if they set up near your work or apartment. It can also often be step 1 of a pickpocketing scam. Its not surprising that people were bothered enough to make this a law in the first place.
  - WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    That's helpful perspective. Thanks.

blub 6y ago

While this might seem like a victory for human dignity, it's not, it's just going to piss off the locals more and make them dislike foreigners, especially those from certain countries.