6 ms·

Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

68 points by alohapersona 6y ago

alohapersona 6y ago
The delay can result in a penalty of ~1000 USD, which probably would be paid with user donations as this is the main source of income for Matrix.org Foundation.
- followthesmell 6y ago
  All charities will waste some of its donations. It's not ideal, but it's not unusual. Let's not blow this out of proportion.
  - geofft 6y ago
    I would possibly argue it is ideal, even. The other two obvious alternatives is that the charity pays someone to deal with paperwork (which we wouldn't call "waste," but means even less of donations go towards the mission), or disorganized people just don't start charities and find for-profit jobs. If you want a vibrant charitable ecosystem, letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thing.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thing I disagree - charities receive special protections and privileges from the public and in return they agree to make themselves accountable. If they aren't making themselves be accountable then they aren't keeping their side of the agreement with the public and their protections and privileges should be revoke.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Making themselves accountable != never missing a paperwork filing deadline. I don't read it as GP arguing that never filing is OK because charity.
      - klelatti 6y ago
        Absolutely. They will almost certainly have to pay someone eventually to do their accounts so this is genuine waste of scarce resources. Plus if a charity can't do things that it is legally required to do then that's not a great sign.
      - geofft 6y ago
        The agreement with the public includes the agreement that a missed filing results in a fine, not in revocation of their protections and privileges. But more generally - my claim is that if the public wants a deal with charities where they must be flawless, that's a bad deal for the public. Effective people will make mistakes sometimes, ranging from missing a filing deadline to hiring people who end up not good at their job to trying some charitable activity that ends up not working. If we hold them to a standard of perfection, the rational activity of the people behind the charity is to just do something else. Is that good for us? Of course we want them to be accountable - I'm not arguing that they should be able to do whatever, and they should try to meet all these requirements, that's why we the public encoded the requirements in the first place. I'm arguing that there's a big difference between accountability and expecting perfection.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  Are donations bringing in more money than Matrix's contract with gov. agencies and other clients ?
  - alohapersona 6y ago
    Contracts with govs involve the for-profit New Vector Ltd. / Element and not the not-for-profit Matrix.org Foundation.
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      Ah, thanks.
throwaway2245 6y ago
It's possible that these are not overdue: there is (at least) a three month coronavirus extension available https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-month-extension-period-to-file-accounts-during-covid-19 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-mo...
- alohapersona 6y ago
  Normally, when the deadline is extended, this is correctly reported on the Companies House website. One has to apply for deadline extension before the deadline. Between 25 March 2020 and 25 June 2020, every application that mentions COVID-19 as a reason was accepted. Additionally, all companies with accounts due date between 26 March 2020 and 29 September 2020 automatically got an extension under the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill. There are also all kinds of temporary changes to deadlines, the one that applies here is 1.4 from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-companies-etc-filing-requirements-temporary-modifications-regulations-2020/temporary-changes-to-companies-house-filing-requirements https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-companies-etc... under which is exactly the 29 October 2020 listed on Companies House website.
secfirstmd 6y ago
This is a nothing burger.
dsr_ 6y ago
This is the sort of thing that happens to most non-profits early in their lifetime. Procedures need to be set up and people need to understand what they need to do.
- alohapersona 6y ago
  What bothers me most is that Matthew mentioned in that issue that they did the accounts on Oct 29 (perfectly in time for the deadline) and that they plan to publish them. Yet apparently they did neither file them officially nor publish them by now...
  - followthesmell 6y ago
    Sometimes things slip in organisations. The bigger issue is that Matrix is not world leading. Let Matthew decide priority on how to achieve that. Dealing with this post would be a distraction.
  - jcims 6y ago
    No shade here, just curious. You(?) created this issue for the 2019 financials and are circling back around for 2020. Is this something you do for other orgs/projects or is there something about matrix.org where you feel it is particularly important?
    - alohapersona 6y ago
      As a donor I feel that organizations should provide some details how donations are used. I'm requesting the same from other organizations I'm donating to if those organizations are more than just three persons working on a free software project in their spare time. Originally donations to matrix.org foundation were supposed to be used to fund matrix protocol work and to hire a developer. This is still listed as a goal (that was reached) on Patreon. Only due to asking I found out that this never happened and donations are used to pay matrix.org homeserver instead, which of course is also a good cause, but should be communicated transparently. I don't mind the accounts specifically, I just think that making them public is the easiest way to fulfill the needs of transparency. Of course a summary on the website, a blog post with explanations, etc, would also be nice, but I understand those mean extra work and there might be more important things the prioritize.
eznzt 6y ago
I am not going to jump to any conclusions until 'Arathorn posts here a 10-paragraph long comment explaining how this is expected and even good for Matrix.
Arathorn 6y ago
Hi folks - we submitted The Matrix.org Foundation accounts via our accountants to UK Companies House several months ago. It's unclear why they're not showing on record; we initially understood it to be due to Covid delays, but we're now chasing the accountants to out find the specifics. If there turn out to be any fines due to late filing, these would not come out of donations, but whoever's fault it actually is for the delay (i.e. the accountants). Sorry for the drama, but this is not reason for panic. (Separately we need to publish a summary of the accounts for https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation, which we are indeed running late on: it's been hard to prioritise it when we're on fire trying to improve Matrix's mass-market usability, given stuff like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812536).
- Arathorn 6y ago
  I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issuecomment-766808120 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...
  - eganist 6y ago
    You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the accountants is fine, but in the end, you picked them, and you chose to stay with them. (The value in the overcharge is really just that you've got a big bullseye you can throw darts at when accountability is required. This doesn't resonate with most entrepreneurs e.g. here on HN - as the greyed out comment alludes :) - but it does with more established firms largely for this reason.)
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      Maybe there's something I'm missing but why are these accounts still not filed electronically? My accountant can do it just fine. Unless there's a specific reason why these accounts should be done on paper, the more reasonable and cost-effective solution would be to switch to an accountancy practice that isn't stuck in the past and there are plenty of those beyond the "big 4".
rschulman 6y ago
I am one of the other Guardians (aka Members of the Board of Directors) of the Matrix Foundation and I can confirm that we submitted the paperwork on time in October 2020. I remember because I had to go to some extra lengths for the process as a non-UK citizen. I'm not surprised that Companies House is lagging behind right now. Basically everything is broken because of Covid, I can't imagine non-profit paperwork is at the top of the priority list. I will also say, as someone who has worked most of my professional life in non-profits, government paperwork is the bane of everyone's existence and having some sort of screw up (whether it is your fault or not) is practically a rite of passage. As Arathorn mentioned in a sibling, we're chasing down our accountants to see if we can get this sorted out, but this isn't a sign of any larger trouble than a paperwork mixup.

68 points by alohapersona 6y ago

The delay can result in a penalty of ~1000 USD, which probably would be paid with user donations as this is the main source of income for Matrix.org Foundation.

followthesmell 6y ago
All charities will waste some of its donations. It's not ideal, but it's not unusual. Let's not blow this out of proportion.
- geofft 6y ago
  I would possibly argue it is ideal, even. The other two obvious alternatives is that the charity pays someone to deal with paperwork (which we wouldn't call "waste," but means even less of donations go towards the mission), or disorganized people just don't start charities and find for-profit jobs. If you want a vibrant charitable ecosystem, letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thing.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thing I disagree - charities receive special protections and privileges from the public and in return they agree to make themselves accountable. If they aren't making themselves be accountable then they aren't keeping their side of the agreement with the public and their protections and privileges should be revoke.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Making themselves accountable != never missing a paperwork filing deadline. I don't read it as GP arguing that never filing is OK because charity.
    - klelatti 6y ago
      Absolutely. They will almost certainly have to pay someone eventually to do their accounts so this is genuine waste of scarce resources. Plus if a charity can't do things that it is legally required to do then that's not a great sign.
    - geofft 6y ago
      The agreement with the public includes the agreement that a missed filing results in a fine, not in revocation of their protections and privileges. But more generally - my claim is that if the public wants a deal with charities where they must be flawless, that's a bad deal for the public. Effective people will make mistakes sometimes, ranging from missing a filing deadline to hiring people who end up not good at their job to trying some charitable activity that ends up not working. If we hold them to a standard of perfection, the rational activity of the people behind the charity is to just do something else. Is that good for us? Of course we want them to be accountable - I'm not arguing that they should be able to do whatever, and they should try to meet all these requirements, that's why we the public encoded the requirements in the first place. I'm arguing that there's a big difference between accountability and expecting perfection.
johnchristopher 6y ago
Are donations bringing in more money than Matrix's contract with gov. agencies and other clients ?
- alohapersona 6y ago
  Contracts with govs involve the for-profit New Vector Ltd. / Element and not the not-for-profit Matrix.org Foundation.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    Ah, thanks.

throwaway2245 6y ago

It's possible that these are not overdue: there is (at least) a three month coronavirus extension available https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-month-extension-period-to-file-accounts-during-covid-19 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-mo...

alohapersona 6y ago
Normally, when the deadline is extended, this is correctly reported on the Companies House website. One has to apply for deadline extension before the deadline. Between 25 March 2020 and 25 June 2020, every application that mentions COVID-19 as a reason was accepted. Additionally, all companies with accounts due date between 26 March 2020 and 29 September 2020 automatically got an extension under the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill. There are also all kinds of temporary changes to deadlines, the one that applies here is 1.4 from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-companies-etc-filing-requirements-temporary-modifications-regulations-2020/temporary-changes-to-companies-house-filing-requirements https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-companies-etc... under which is exactly the 29 October 2020 listed on Companies House website.

secfirstmd 6y ago

This is a nothing burger.

dsr_ 6y ago

This is the sort of thing that happens to most non-profits early in their lifetime. Procedures need to be set up and people need to understand what they need to do.

alohapersona 6y ago
What bothers me most is that Matthew mentioned in that issue that they did the accounts on Oct 29 (perfectly in time for the deadline) and that they plan to publish them. Yet apparently they did neither file them officially nor publish them by now...
- followthesmell 6y ago
  Sometimes things slip in organisations. The bigger issue is that Matrix is not world leading. Let Matthew decide priority on how to achieve that. Dealing with this post would be a distraction.
- jcims 6y ago
  No shade here, just curious. You(?) created this issue for the 2019 financials and are circling back around for 2020. Is this something you do for other orgs/projects or is there something about matrix.org where you feel it is particularly important?
  - alohapersona 6y ago
    As a donor I feel that organizations should provide some details how donations are used. I'm requesting the same from other organizations I'm donating to if those organizations are more than just three persons working on a free software project in their spare time. Originally donations to matrix.org foundation were supposed to be used to fund matrix protocol work and to hire a developer. This is still listed as a goal (that was reached) on Patreon. Only due to asking I found out that this never happened and donations are used to pay matrix.org homeserver instead, which of course is also a good cause, but should be communicated transparently. I don't mind the accounts specifically, I just think that making them public is the easiest way to fulfill the needs of transparency. Of course a summary on the website, a blog post with explanations, etc, would also be nice, but I understand those mean extra work and there might be more important things the prioritize.

eznzt 6y ago

I am not going to jump to any conclusions until 'Arathorn posts here a 10-paragraph long comment explaining how this is expected and even good for Matrix.

Arathorn 6y ago

Hi folks - we submitted The Matrix.org Foundation accounts via our accountants to UK Companies House several months ago. It's unclear why they're not showing on record; we initially understood it to be due to Covid delays, but we're now chasing the accountants to out find the specifics. If there turn out to be any fines due to late filing, these would not come out of donations, but whoever's fault it actually is for the delay (i.e. the accountants). Sorry for the drama, but this is not reason for panic. (Separately we need to publish a summary of the accounts for https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation, which we are indeed running late on: it's been hard to prioritise it when we're on fire trying to improve Matrix's mass-market usability, given stuff like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812536).

Arathorn 6y ago
I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issuecomment-766808120 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...
- eganist 6y ago
  You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the accountants is fine, but in the end, you picked them, and you chose to stay with them. (The value in the overcharge is really just that you've got a big bullseye you can throw darts at when accountability is required. This doesn't resonate with most entrepreneurs e.g. here on HN - as the greyed out comment alludes :) - but it does with more established firms largely for this reason.)
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Maybe there's something I'm missing but why are these accounts still not filed electronically? My accountant can do it just fine. Unless there's a specific reason why these accounts should be done on paper, the more reasonable and cost-effective solution would be to switch to an accountancy practice that isn't stuck in the past and there are plenty of those beyond the "big 4".

rschulman 6y ago

I am one of the other Guardians (aka Members of the Board of Directors) of the Matrix Foundation and I can confirm that we submitted the paperwork on time in October 2020. I remember because I had to go to some extra lengths for the process as a non-UK citizen. I'm not surprised that Companies House is lagging behind right now. Basically everything is broken because of Covid, I can't imagine non-profit paperwork is at the top of the priority list. I will also say, as someone who has worked most of my professional life in non-profits, government paperwork is the bane of everyone's existence and having some sort of screw up (whether it is your fault or not) is practically a rite of passage. As Arathorn mentioned in a sibling, we're chasing down our accountants to see if we can get this sorted out, but this isn't a sign of any larger trouble than a paperwork mixup.