5 ms·

Why your face could be set to replace your bank card

Aardwolf 6y ago
So anyone who has a photo or 3D model of you can pay using your face?
- derision 6y ago
  This is gonna suck for identical twins too. My SO and her twin can unlock each other's phones
  - underseacables 6y ago
    And Asians... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5182512/chinese-users-claim-iphonex-face-recognition-cant-tell-them-apart/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5182512/chinese-users-claim-ip...
type0 6y ago
> "holds up a peace sign, which, as the system recognises, means that she wants to pay a 15% tip" > "uses the shaka sign, pictured, if she wants to tip 20%" Would you be able to hold a f*u sign and get a discount for privacy conscious behavour?
Yizahi 6y ago
Ignoring a million problems with this idea, I just have one question - what's a "peace sign"?
- franga2000 6y ago
  I think it's a V shape with your index and middle finger. Palm orientation might matter too - I think the same with the back of the hand facing forward has very different meanings. There's an emoji of it: (U+270C - in case HN strips it)
- wartijn_ 6y ago
  Here you go: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peace+sign+hand+&t=iphone&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peace+sign+hand+&t=iphone&iax=imag...
dxdm 6y ago
Is this a paid PR piece? I'm missing some information from experts why this might be a bad idea, and what problems it creates. A little bit of "some people will never accept it" at the end doesn't seem to go very deep.
ktpsns 6y ago
That's interesting how tipping is made a "verbose gesture" in this article. Tipping is a cultural thing – while in US, 20% tips are standard, in Germany (Europe?) from my experience it's more like 10% to be standard. Also, in Germany I percieve people tipping silently. Frqeuently even the counter personel does not notice, because there's a piggy bank or some other anonymous funding box. I guess the social pressure is much higher if everybody in your group does a "chacka" sign...
- f6v 6y ago
  > Also, in Germany I percieve people tipping silently 99% of the time everyone around me was tipping while paying the waiter at the table. You give 10 EUR note on a 9.10 bill and say “Stimmt so.”
  - majewsky 6y ago
    If that is "tipping silently", then what is the implied default way?
    - ktpsns 6y ago
      Yes, that's exactly what I mean. You tip and don't make a big thing out of it.
- ljm 6y ago
  I don't think any of that would fly across much of Europe and the UK, where tipping is an optional gesture and not a form of the customer subsidising the restaurant's wage bill. Certainly not 10/20% amounts when generally you'll probably just round up or leave the change behind.
  - Normille 6y ago
    >Europe and the UK, where tipping is an optional gesture and not a form of the customer subsidising the restaurant's wage bill Unfortunately, a lot of unscrupulous restaurant owners [in UK anyway] used it as exactly that. I worked in a restaurant kitchen, back when I was a student where the waiting staff's wages were risibly low and they were expected to supplement them with whatever they received as tips. It actually changed my opinion on tipping a bit. Before getting this 'behind the scenes' insight, I'd never bothered leaving tips as I thought 'what's so special about waiters & waitresses that they're expected to get extra gratuities for doing their jobs, when the rest of us don't?' I don't know if the situation has changed since then, as this was before the introduction of the minimum wage. But, back then, tipping was definitely used as a way of covering some of the wage bill.
franga2000 6y ago
So we went from a single-factor solution (magstripe) that was only clonable hands-on, to two-factor (chip&pin) and even multi-factor (mobile payments) solutions that were near-impossible to clone even with significant hands-on time and e2e cryptographically verifiable and now to...a single factor that can be cloned by line of sight (or even remotely) and has no cryptographic verification... And don't try tell me that the facial recognition can't be fooled. Every biometric ID system I know of was broken eventually and keep in mind that these systems might sometimes be unattended or deployed by untrustworthy people so the attack surface is even greater. Can't wait until we go back to "tell the cashier your name and they phone the bank at the end of the day"......
yokaze 6y ago
Because it is as easily replaceable as a bank card, in case it gets compromised? Oh, wait...
newscracker 6y ago
> "Our phones already read our faces, and our faces are already all over the internet, so I don't think it really makes much of a difference [to someone's security].” That’s exactly why it’s a problem. The phones, at least the good ones, have better security and store the face map securely and allow it to be used for specific purposes in a secure manner. The faces being all over the Internet is also the problem why such systems are susceptible to attacks. > It's faster, more convenient, and safer... and you don't have to worry about leaving your phone or cards at home." It may be convenient. It may be fast. But it’s certainly not safer. I worry that this will become the future, where users might as well have a permanent tattoo on their foreheads saying “Please rob me”. I also wonder who’ll bear the time and money lost due to fraud and theft. “Someone stole your face, please change it” doesn’t sound like a solution.

So anyone who has a photo or 3D model of you can pay using your face?

derision 6y ago
This is gonna suck for identical twins too. My SO and her twin can unlock each other's phones
- underseacables 6y ago
  And Asians... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5182512/chinese-users-claim-iphonex-face-recognition-cant-tell-them-apart/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5182512/chinese-users-claim-ip...

> "holds up a peace sign, which, as the system recognises, means that she wants to pay a 15% tip" > "uses the shaka sign, pictured, if she wants to tip 20%" Would you be able to hold a f*u sign and get a discount for privacy conscious behavour?

Yizahi 6y ago

Ignoring a million problems with this idea, I just have one question - what's a "peace sign"?

franga2000 6y ago
I think it's a V shape with your index and middle finger. Palm orientation might matter too - I think the same with the back of the hand facing forward has very different meanings. There's an emoji of it: (U+270C - in case HN strips it)
wartijn_ 6y ago
Here you go: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peace+sign+hand+&t=iphone&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peace+sign+hand+&t=iphone&iax=imag...

dxdm 6y ago

Is this a paid PR piece? I'm missing some information from experts why this might be a bad idea, and what problems it creates. A little bit of "some people will never accept it" at the end doesn't seem to go very deep.

ktpsns 6y ago

That's interesting how tipping is made a "verbose gesture" in this article. Tipping is a cultural thing – while in US, 20% tips are standard, in Germany (Europe?) from my experience it's more like 10% to be standard. Also, in Germany I percieve people tipping silently. Frqeuently even the counter personel does not notice, because there's a piggy bank or some other anonymous funding box. I guess the social pressure is much higher if everybody in your group does a "chacka" sign...

f6v 6y ago
> Also, in Germany I percieve people tipping silently 99% of the time everyone around me was tipping while paying the waiter at the table. You give 10 EUR note on a 9.10 bill and say “Stimmt so.”
- majewsky 6y ago
  If that is "tipping silently", then what is the implied default way?
  - ktpsns 6y ago
    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. You tip and don't make a big thing out of it.
ljm 6y ago
I don't think any of that would fly across much of Europe and the UK, where tipping is an optional gesture and not a form of the customer subsidising the restaurant's wage bill. Certainly not 10/20% amounts when generally you'll probably just round up or leave the change behind.
- Normille 6y ago
  >Europe and the UK, where tipping is an optional gesture and not a form of the customer subsidising the restaurant's wage bill Unfortunately, a lot of unscrupulous restaurant owners [in UK anyway] used it as exactly that. I worked in a restaurant kitchen, back when I was a student where the waiting staff's wages were risibly low and they were expected to supplement them with whatever they received as tips. It actually changed my opinion on tipping a bit. Before getting this 'behind the scenes' insight, I'd never bothered leaving tips as I thought 'what's so special about waiters & waitresses that they're expected to get extra gratuities for doing their jobs, when the rest of us don't?' I don't know if the situation has changed since then, as this was before the introduction of the minimum wage. But, back then, tipping was definitely used as a way of covering some of the wage bill.

franga2000 6y ago

So we went from a single-factor solution (magstripe) that was only clonable hands-on, to two-factor (chip&pin) and even multi-factor (mobile payments) solutions that were near-impossible to clone even with significant hands-on time and e2e cryptographically verifiable and now to...a single factor that can be cloned by line of sight (or even remotely) and has no cryptographic verification... And don't try tell me that the facial recognition can't be fooled. Every biometric ID system I know of was broken eventually and keep in mind that these systems might sometimes be unattended or deployed by untrustworthy people so the attack surface is even greater. Can't wait until we go back to "tell the cashier your name and they phone the bank at the end of the day"......

yokaze 6y ago

Because it is as easily replaceable as a bank card, in case it gets compromised? Oh, wait...

newscracker 6y ago

> "Our phones already read our faces, and our faces are already all over the internet, so I don't think it really makes much of a difference [to someone's security].” That’s exactly why it’s a problem. The phones, at least the good ones, have better security and store the face map securely and allow it to be used for specific purposes in a secure manner. The faces being all over the Internet is also the problem why such systems are susceptible to attacks. > It's faster, more convenient, and safer... and you don't have to worry about leaving your phone or cards at home." It may be convenient. It may be fast. But it’s certainly not safer. I worry that this will become the future, where users might as well have a permanent tattoo on their foreheads saying “Please rob me”. I also wonder who’ll bear the time and money lost due to fraud and theft. “Someone stole your face, please change it” doesn’t sound like a solution.