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As I've mentioned in numerous other comments, there is a well-recognized and codified difference between manslaughter and murder [0]. He was also not charged w

As I've mentioned in numerous other comments, there is a well-recognized and codified difference between manslaughter and murder [0]. He was also not charged with murder, but with "Operating While Intoxicated Causing Death" [1], which I believe is a manslaughter charge. [0]: https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaughter/ https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaught... [1]: https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=961096 https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumb...

cortesoft 6y ago
That doesn't make the two people any less dead.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  No, of course not. Our previous President not having taken more decisive action on the COVID pandemic doesn't make 400,000 people any less dead. But this is, in my opinion, more a tragedy of circumstance than anything else, and that's what our court systems should be working to mediate. This guy, with a strict halfway-house counselling & treatment program, could be solving mathematical problems at a top 10 university right now. Instead, he's locked up in prison for the foreseeable future — what good does that do for the two dead people, for society, or for him? Prisons should be there to house people who can't be rehabilitated, and to punish those who've done things seriously wrong (which may include him, but I would err to think not).
  - angmarsbane 6y ago
    I haven’t read the article yet so I may circle back to my comment here after reading it. What’s stopping him from solving math problems in prison? Math doesn’t disintegrate past prison walls.
  - kaesar14 6y ago
    How is ending two lives not doing something seriously wrong?
selestify 6y ago
Both manslaughter and murder count as "killing." Not to mention, the dangers of drunk driving are well-known by now, and he still decided to drive drunk. Actions have consequences, and now two people are dead due to his entirely voluntary actions.
- gmadsen 6y ago
  something I've always been curious about and honestly not trying to be edgy. Why is it that with the choice of drunk driving, it is 100% rationally made and bears the full consequence of his actions, but when alcohol is involved in sexual relations, then it is perfectly fine to argue the inability to make sound judgement?
  - crenstrope 6y ago
    If he'd drunkenly raped those two teenagers to death rather than drunkenly killing them with his car, then he'd be imprisoned for that instead. So I'm not sure what your point is really.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    It is certainly a double standard.
  - rtyujkx 6y ago
    Exactly, sexual predators and molesters shouldn't be given just a slap on the wrist because they had a few drinks first. Sex crimes in general are routinely downplayed as it is. Something like 99% of reported rapes don't lead to prosecution. And men (it's overwhelming men who rape) know this, and know they can basically get away with it. It's disgraceful.
  - selestify 6y ago
    Are you talking about the phenomenon of blaming poor judgment in consensual sex on alcohol? One major difference is that the unintended consequences of consensual sex are usually reversible afterwards, whereas there’s no undoing a death. Another is that alcohol is usually used as a face-saving measure in the first place. Even if both partners are not that drunk, they now have a socially acceptable excuse to have sex without being perceived to be “as” promiscuous as they would be otherwise. The “consequences” here aren’t so great anyways, at most maybe an unwanted pregnancy, which yes is something one should take responsibility for one way or the other anyways. If you’re talking about alcohol as an excuse for sexual assault, I agree, and I don’t know anyone in my social circle who wouldn’t. If you’re unable to control yourself on alcohol, then don’t drink. If you drink and end up assaulting someone, sexually or not, that’s entirely on you and you should be punished for it. Don’t be a Brock Turner. The legal system may have double standards, but the rest of us shouldn’t.
astura 6y ago
Who the fuck cares? As a daughter of one of these useless degenerates, I'm more concerned about people who have so little regard toward human life that they'd casually endanger others for little to no reason than those who deliberately plot to kill someone else for personal gain. Of course, there's overlap in those two groups too...
- sebmellen 6y ago
  I'm sorry you had a drunken parent. I commiserate and I have close relatives/friends who have grown up in such households, some who are people like that themselves. I share sympathy for your viewpoint, but I don't agree with it (and neither do most court systems). But I do respect your difference of opinion.
  - astura 6y ago
    Ehhh... Wat? True, my parent was/is drunken my entire life, with a month or two of sobriety spliced in here and there. That doesn't mean that alcohol somehow magically caused him to be a useless degenerate who has no regard for human life. From what I hear my dad's biggest unexcusable behavior in life came before the alcoholism. His flashes of sobriety that I witnessed growing up didn't magically reveal a good person. Using alcoholism to excuse any behavior is just wrong, imo. My mom readily used it to justify why my dad beat her and us. That's not okay. Assholes need to be hold accountable and their actions should not be explained away.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      In this case, it seems quite clear that this man is not a "useless degenerate" in the absence of alcohol — in fact he is doing productive, intelligent work. I believe it is quite apparent that alcohol/ism was the key factor in his terrible decisions. Without alcohol, he isn't behaving like a useless degenerate. Therefore, we can quite comfortably say that alcohol is an explanation, if not an excuse, for his behaviour.
      - 6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
> He was also not charged with murder, but with “Operating While Intoxicated Causing Death” [1], which I believe is a manslaughter charge. No, its what it says on the tin, any mapping to common law categories is imperfect; though, if you want to map it to common law homicide categories, murder of the “depraved indifference to human life” type would seem to be a decent fit. It may also, in common law terms, be a fit for felony murder, depending on whether DUI is a felony in the state and circumstances committed (typically, its not for a first offense, but may be for subsequent offenses).

cortesoft 6y ago

That doesn't make the two people any less dead.

sebmellen 6y ago
No, of course not. Our previous President not having taken more decisive action on the COVID pandemic doesn't make 400,000 people any less dead. But this is, in my opinion, more a tragedy of circumstance than anything else, and that's what our court systems should be working to mediate. This guy, with a strict halfway-house counselling & treatment program, could be solving mathematical problems at a top 10 university right now. Instead, he's locked up in prison for the foreseeable future — what good does that do for the two dead people, for society, or for him? Prisons should be there to house people who can't be rehabilitated, and to punish those who've done things seriously wrong (which may include him, but I would err to think not).
- angmarsbane 6y ago
  I haven’t read the article yet so I may circle back to my comment here after reading it. What’s stopping him from solving math problems in prison? Math doesn’t disintegrate past prison walls.
- kaesar14 6y ago
  How is ending two lives not doing something seriously wrong?

selestify 6y ago

Both manslaughter and murder count as "killing." Not to mention, the dangers of drunk driving are well-known by now, and he still decided to drive drunk. Actions have consequences, and now two people are dead due to his entirely voluntary actions.

gmadsen 6y ago
something I've always been curious about and honestly not trying to be edgy. Why is it that with the choice of drunk driving, it is 100% rationally made and bears the full consequence of his actions, but when alcohol is involved in sexual relations, then it is perfectly fine to argue the inability to make sound judgement?
- crenstrope 6y ago
  If he'd drunkenly raped those two teenagers to death rather than drunkenly killing them with his car, then he'd be imprisoned for that instead. So I'm not sure what your point is really.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  It is certainly a double standard.
- rtyujkx 6y ago
  Exactly, sexual predators and molesters shouldn't be given just a slap on the wrist because they had a few drinks first. Sex crimes in general are routinely downplayed as it is. Something like 99% of reported rapes don't lead to prosecution. And men (it's overwhelming men who rape) know this, and know they can basically get away with it. It's disgraceful.
- selestify 6y ago
  Are you talking about the phenomenon of blaming poor judgment in consensual sex on alcohol? One major difference is that the unintended consequences of consensual sex are usually reversible afterwards, whereas there’s no undoing a death. Another is that alcohol is usually used as a face-saving measure in the first place. Even if both partners are not that drunk, they now have a socially acceptable excuse to have sex without being perceived to be “as” promiscuous as they would be otherwise. The “consequences” here aren’t so great anyways, at most maybe an unwanted pregnancy, which yes is something one should take responsibility for one way or the other anyways. If you’re talking about alcohol as an excuse for sexual assault, I agree, and I don’t know anyone in my social circle who wouldn’t. If you’re unable to control yourself on alcohol, then don’t drink. If you drink and end up assaulting someone, sexually or not, that’s entirely on you and you should be punished for it. Don’t be a Brock Turner. The legal system may have double standards, but the rest of us shouldn’t.

astura 6y ago

Who the fuck cares? As a daughter of one of these useless degenerates, I'm more concerned about people who have so little regard toward human life that they'd casually endanger others for little to no reason than those who deliberately plot to kill someone else for personal gain. Of course, there's overlap in those two groups too...

sebmellen 6y ago
I'm sorry you had a drunken parent. I commiserate and I have close relatives/friends who have grown up in such households, some who are people like that themselves. I share sympathy for your viewpoint, but I don't agree with it (and neither do most court systems). But I do respect your difference of opinion.
- astura 6y ago
  Ehhh... Wat? True, my parent was/is drunken my entire life, with a month or two of sobriety spliced in here and there. That doesn't mean that alcohol somehow magically caused him to be a useless degenerate who has no regard for human life. From what I hear my dad's biggest unexcusable behavior in life came before the alcoholism. His flashes of sobriety that I witnessed growing up didn't magically reveal a good person. Using alcoholism to excuse any behavior is just wrong, imo. My mom readily used it to justify why my dad beat her and us. That's not okay. Assholes need to be hold accountable and their actions should not be explained away.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    In this case, it seems quite clear that this man is not a "useless degenerate" in the absence of alcohol — in fact he is doing productive, intelligent work. I believe it is quite apparent that alcohol/ism was the key factor in his terrible decisions. Without alcohol, he isn't behaving like a useless degenerate. Therefore, we can quite comfortably say that alcohol is an explanation, if not an excuse, for his behaviour.
    - 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> He was also not charged with murder, but with “Operating While Intoxicated Causing Death” [1], which I believe is a manslaughter charge. No, its what it says on the tin, any mapping to common law categories is imperfect; though, if you want to map it to common law homicide categories, murder of the “depraved indifference to human life” type would seem to be a decent fit. It may also, in common law terms, be a fit for felony murder, depending on whether DUI is a felony in the state and circumstances committed (typically, its not for a first offense, but may be for subsequent offenses).