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Think, for a moment. Let’s all think. Are we saying it is tragic for smart and young people to be in prison but not older or less intelligent people? I’m not

Think, for a moment. Let’s all think. Are we saying it is tragic for smart and young people to be in prison but not older or less intelligent people? I’m not messing with you or being snarky. I felt your sentiment keenly and then wonder what exactly I’m agreeing with.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sebmellen 6y ago
I'm sorry if it comes off as dismissing the plight of others, that certainly wasn't my intention. I think being sentenced so heavily in one's youth is arguably more tragic because there's an argument to be made that adolescence is a different developmental period [0]. Perhaps sentencing should take this into account (e.g. a different sentencing bracket until ~24?). Also, there's another argument to be made that younger people have had less time to sort themselves out, and a longer time to redeem themselves or make something of themselves (which I think we see here, not to say an elderly person couldn't do that). With regards to less intelligent people who are imprisoned, I would even say their plight is maybe even more tragic. Less intelligent people probably have faced many more hardships in life and/or had a harder time mounting a strong legal defence (though intelligent people are more likely to abuse drugs [1]). I suppose this struck me in particular because it's a strong condemnation of the stereotype that prisoners are "certain kinds" of people. The contrast is what made it stand out. Maybe it can serve as an example for those who believe you only end up in prison if you are one of those "certain kinds" of people. Again, it wasn't a calculated sentiment, it just struck me how absurd getting sentenced to up to 30 years of imprisonment is, especially as a 19 year-old who probably could've ended up at a top university if not for life circumstances. I also think our justice and prison system is fundamentally flawed and should be reworked, especially for non-violent crimes (which this borders on the edge of). [0]: https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-drink-more-alcohol https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-funda...
- cortesoft 6y ago
  This is true, but at the same time the guy killed two people. Those people are never coming back. Of course, harsh sentences don't always cause a drop in the rate of the crime being committed. This is an awful situation.
- _cs2017_ 6y ago
  Your point is unclear. If someone (non-violent and intelligent though he may be) regularly puts many people at risk of death, and likely will cause many more deaths if left unchecked, what do you propose to do? There is no tool available in the US (or even in less free societies, for that matter) to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics, or to deny them an ability to drive. Installing alcohol detectors in every car sold in the US is technically feasible, but the preferences for individual freedom all but ensure this idea will be rejected (https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-automakers-to-install-in-car-breathalyzers-to-prevent-drunk-driving https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-aut...). Did you have any other proposals in mind?
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    There definitely are many tools to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics. There are standard treatment programs like Alcoholics Anonymous [0], there are a number of other rehabilitation programs [1], and there are cutting-edge therapies like psychedelic treatments [2]. It's a despondent (and false) view that alcoholism is untreatable. Also, as it comes to driving itself, France is a good example. There, police regularly do random spot-checks for drunk drivers [3], and IIRC every driver must necessarily carry a breathalyser [4]. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/does-alcoholics-anonymous-work-because-its-form-cognitive-behavioral-therapy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/do... [1]: https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ [2]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201905/can-psychedelic-experiences-cure-alcohol-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201... [3]: https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/country-by-country/france-and-monaco https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-eu... [4]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-French-law-makes-breathalyser-kits-compulsory-motorists.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-Frenc...
solumos 6y ago
Yes, "equal protection" is a myth.
cm2012 6y ago
A good rule of thumb for how people categorize levels of tragedy is how much "potential" is being wasted.
- softcore_yawn 6y ago
  A better rule of thumb is how much sympathy can be garnered from a prisoner's class, race, and general appearance. Take your average white American, for example, and how they regard people in prison. Upper-middle class, white, looks a bit like them? "What a crying shame, all that wasted potential!" they'll say adoringly, ignoring the fact he killed two kids. Poverty class, black, looks a bit scary to your average racist white? "That thug got what it deserved, glad it's locked up!" they'll snarl instead, about some guy banged up for the rest of his life for selling a few bags of weed.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Two things: 1. There are a number of accounts created in the last 30 minutes commenting on this thread, including yours. Did you just happen across HN? If so, welcome! 2. If you read my other comments, you'll see I'm very much in favour of reforming non-violent drug law sentencing. I'm even in favour of clemency for the vast majority of non-violent offenders. I also think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who thinks in the way your strawman/caricature does. The whole point is that draconian prison sentences are a shame and do little do address the core problem (whether it's drug abuse or violent crime). I also think using phrases like "your average racist white" is unnecessarily provocative, and the phrase itself is inaccurate.
gmadsen 6y ago
without trying to seem lacking in empathy it is exactly that. I mourn for the loss of contribution to science and math.
- crenstrope 6y ago
  How about mourning for the people he actually killed? Rather than mourning for the killer finding it more difficult to engage in his hobbies, while he experiences the consequences of killing two innocents.
  - gmadsen 6y ago
    I thought I was more careful with my wording. I do not mourn the killers happiness to do things, just the lost potential to society. Granted I have no idea what potential the two innocents had as well, if they happened to be academics, I would mourn their lost potential as well.
picnicill 6y ago
I think it's more a case of some commenters on HN having more empathy with a person who they assume is like them (young, intelligent, privileged) then the people this drunk driver killed.
threatofrain 6y ago
The more bright and young someone is, the more we're inclined to give them another chance. Is this surprising? Is there a society where this is not true? Germany?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sebmellen 6y ago

I'm sorry if it comes off as dismissing the plight of others, that certainly wasn't my intention. I think being sentenced so heavily in one's youth is arguably more tragic because there's an argument to be made that adolescence is a different developmental period [0]. Perhaps sentencing should take this into account (e.g. a different sentencing bracket until ~24?). Also, there's another argument to be made that younger people have had less time to sort themselves out, and a longer time to redeem themselves or make something of themselves (which I think we see here, not to say an elderly person couldn't do that). With regards to less intelligent people who are imprisoned, I would even say their plight is maybe even more tragic. Less intelligent people probably have faced many more hardships in life and/or had a harder time mounting a strong legal defence (though intelligent people are more likely to abuse drugs [1]). I suppose this struck me in particular because it's a strong condemnation of the stereotype that prisoners are "certain kinds" of people. The contrast is what made it stand out. Maybe it can serve as an example for those who believe you only end up in prison if you are one of those "certain kinds" of people. Again, it wasn't a calculated sentiment, it just struck me how absurd getting sentenced to up to 30 years of imprisonment is, especially as a 19 year-old who probably could've ended up at a top university if not for life circumstances. I also think our justice and prison system is fundamentally flawed and should be reworked, especially for non-violent crimes (which this borders on the edge of). [0]: https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-drink-more-alcohol https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-funda...

cortesoft 6y ago
This is true, but at the same time the guy killed two people. Those people are never coming back. Of course, harsh sentences don't always cause a drop in the rate of the crime being committed. This is an awful situation.
_cs2017_ 6y ago
Your point is unclear. If someone (non-violent and intelligent though he may be) regularly puts many people at risk of death, and likely will cause many more deaths if left unchecked, what do you propose to do? There is no tool available in the US (or even in less free societies, for that matter) to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics, or to deny them an ability to drive. Installing alcohol detectors in every car sold in the US is technically feasible, but the preferences for individual freedom all but ensure this idea will be rejected (https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-automakers-to-install-in-car-breathalyzers-to-prevent-drunk-driving https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-aut...). Did you have any other proposals in mind?
- sebmellen 6y ago
  There definitely are many tools to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics. There are standard treatment programs like Alcoholics Anonymous [0], there are a number of other rehabilitation programs [1], and there are cutting-edge therapies like psychedelic treatments [2]. It's a despondent (and false) view that alcoholism is untreatable. Also, as it comes to driving itself, France is a good example. There, police regularly do random spot-checks for drunk drivers [3], and IIRC every driver must necessarily carry a breathalyser [4]. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/does-alcoholics-anonymous-work-because-its-form-cognitive-behavioral-therapy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/do... [1]: https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ [2]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201905/can-psychedelic-experiences-cure-alcohol-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201... [3]: https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/country-by-country/france-and-monaco https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-eu... [4]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-French-law-makes-breathalyser-kits-compulsory-motorists.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-Frenc...

solumos 6y ago

Yes, "equal protection" is a myth.

cm2012 6y ago

A good rule of thumb for how people categorize levels of tragedy is how much "potential" is being wasted.

softcore_yawn 6y ago
A better rule of thumb is how much sympathy can be garnered from a prisoner's class, race, and general appearance. Take your average white American, for example, and how they regard people in prison. Upper-middle class, white, looks a bit like them? "What a crying shame, all that wasted potential!" they'll say adoringly, ignoring the fact he killed two kids. Poverty class, black, looks a bit scary to your average racist white? "That thug got what it deserved, glad it's locked up!" they'll snarl instead, about some guy banged up for the rest of his life for selling a few bags of weed.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Two things: 1. There are a number of accounts created in the last 30 minutes commenting on this thread, including yours. Did you just happen across HN? If so, welcome! 2. If you read my other comments, you'll see I'm very much in favour of reforming non-violent drug law sentencing. I'm even in favour of clemency for the vast majority of non-violent offenders. I also think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who thinks in the way your strawman/caricature does. The whole point is that draconian prison sentences are a shame and do little do address the core problem (whether it's drug abuse or violent crime). I also think using phrases like "your average racist white" is unnecessarily provocative, and the phrase itself is inaccurate.

gmadsen 6y ago

without trying to seem lacking in empathy it is exactly that. I mourn for the loss of contribution to science and math.

crenstrope 6y ago
How about mourning for the people he actually killed? Rather than mourning for the killer finding it more difficult to engage in his hobbies, while he experiences the consequences of killing two innocents.
- gmadsen 6y ago
  I thought I was more careful with my wording. I do not mourn the killers happiness to do things, just the lost potential to society. Granted I have no idea what potential the two innocents had as well, if they happened to be academics, I would mourn their lost potential as well.

picnicill 6y ago

I think it's more a case of some commenters on HN having more empathy with a person who they assume is like them (young, intelligent, privileged) then the people this drunk driver killed.

threatofrain 6y ago

The more bright and young someone is, the more we're inclined to give them another chance. Is this surprising? Is there a society where this is not true? Germany?