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It's tragic to see bright young people in prison like this. Travis (the son in this post) is 25. To be in prison since 19 years old, with the earliest release d

It's tragic to see bright young people in prison like this. Travis (the son in this post) is 25. To be in prison since 19 years old, with the earliest release date in 2027 (latest in 2045)... Goodness. This sort of time in jail is what you get for murder in parts of Europe [1]. Anyway, sorry if it's off-topic. Very inspiring what he's up to. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_the_Nethe... > Due to the strict nature of the sentence, most "common" murders result in a sentence of around 12 to 30 years. EDIT: If you downvoted me I would appreciate knowing why. What is it that I wrote?

whiddershins 6y ago
Think, for a moment. Let’s all think. Are we saying it is tragic for smart and young people to be in prison but not older or less intelligent people? I’m not messing with you or being snarky. I felt your sentiment keenly and then wonder what exactly I’m agreeing with.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sebmellen 6y ago
  I'm sorry if it comes off as dismissing the plight of others, that certainly wasn't my intention. I think being sentenced so heavily in one's youth is arguably more tragic because there's an argument to be made that adolescence is a different developmental period [0]. Perhaps sentencing should take this into account (e.g. a different sentencing bracket until ~24?). Also, there's another argument to be made that younger people have had less time to sort themselves out, and a longer time to redeem themselves or make something of themselves (which I think we see here, not to say an elderly person couldn't do that). With regards to less intelligent people who are imprisoned, I would even say their plight is maybe even more tragic. Less intelligent people probably have faced many more hardships in life and/or had a harder time mounting a strong legal defence (though intelligent people are more likely to abuse drugs [1]). I suppose this struck me in particular because it's a strong condemnation of the stereotype that prisoners are "certain kinds" of people. The contrast is what made it stand out. Maybe it can serve as an example for those who believe you only end up in prison if you are one of those "certain kinds" of people. Again, it wasn't a calculated sentiment, it just struck me how absurd getting sentenced to up to 30 years of imprisonment is, especially as a 19 year-old who probably could've ended up at a top university if not for life circumstances. I also think our justice and prison system is fundamentally flawed and should be reworked, especially for non-violent crimes (which this borders on the edge of). [0]: https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-drink-more-alcohol https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-funda...
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    This is true, but at the same time the guy killed two people. Those people are never coming back. Of course, harsh sentences don't always cause a drop in the rate of the crime being committed. This is an awful situation.
  - _cs2017_ 6y ago
    Your point is unclear. If someone (non-violent and intelligent though he may be) regularly puts many people at risk of death, and likely will cause many more deaths if left unchecked, what do you propose to do? There is no tool available in the US (or even in less free societies, for that matter) to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics, or to deny them an ability to drive. Installing alcohol detectors in every car sold in the US is technically feasible, but the preferences for individual freedom all but ensure this idea will be rejected (https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-automakers-to-install-in-car-breathalyzers-to-prevent-drunk-driving https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-aut...). Did you have any other proposals in mind?
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      There definitely are many tools to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics. There are standard treatment programs like Alcoholics Anonymous [0], there are a number of other rehabilitation programs [1], and there are cutting-edge therapies like psychedelic treatments [2]. It's a despondent (and false) view that alcoholism is untreatable. Also, as it comes to driving itself, France is a good example. There, police regularly do random spot-checks for drunk drivers [3], and IIRC every driver must necessarily carry a breathalyser [4]. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/does-alcoholics-anonymous-work-because-its-form-cognitive-behavioral-therapy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/do... [1]: https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ [2]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201905/can-psychedelic-experiences-cure-alcohol-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201... [3]: https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/country-by-country/france-and-monaco https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-eu... [4]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-French-law-makes-breathalyser-kits-compulsory-motorists.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-Frenc...
- solumos 6y ago
  Yes, "equal protection" is a myth.
- cm2012 6y ago
  A good rule of thumb for how people categorize levels of tragedy is how much "potential" is being wasted.
  - softcore_yawn 6y ago
    A better rule of thumb is how much sympathy can be garnered from a prisoner's class, race, and general appearance. Take your average white American, for example, and how they regard people in prison. Upper-middle class, white, looks a bit like them? "What a crying shame, all that wasted potential!" they'll say adoringly, ignoring the fact he killed two kids. Poverty class, black, looks a bit scary to your average racist white? "That thug got what it deserved, glad it's locked up!" they'll snarl instead, about some guy banged up for the rest of his life for selling a few bags of weed.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      Two things: 1. There are a number of accounts created in the last 30 minutes commenting on this thread, including yours. Did you just happen across HN? If so, welcome! 2. If you read my other comments, you'll see I'm very much in favour of reforming non-violent drug law sentencing. I'm even in favour of clemency for the vast majority of non-violent offenders. I also think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who thinks in the way your strawman/caricature does. The whole point is that draconian prison sentences are a shame and do little do address the core problem (whether it's drug abuse or violent crime). I also think using phrases like "your average racist white" is unnecessarily provocative, and the phrase itself is inaccurate.
- gmadsen 6y ago
  without trying to seem lacking in empathy it is exactly that. I mourn for the loss of contribution to science and math.
  - crenstrope 6y ago
    How about mourning for the people he actually killed? Rather than mourning for the killer finding it more difficult to engage in his hobbies, while he experiences the consequences of killing two innocents.
    - gmadsen 6y ago
      I thought I was more careful with my wording. I do not mourn the killers happiness to do things, just the lost potential to society. Granted I have no idea what potential the two innocents had as well, if they happened to be academics, I would mourn their lost potential as well.
- picnicill 6y ago
  I think it's more a case of some commenters on HN having more empathy with a person who they assume is like them (young, intelligent, privileged) then the people this drunk driver killed.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  The more bright and young someone is, the more we're inclined to give them another chance. Is this surprising? Is there a society where this is not true? Germany?
paulcole 6y ago
He killed 2 people. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_12-30_years_in_d.html https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_1...
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Yes, I know, but murder is a very different sentence from manslaughter. This was obviously his fault, and I feel terrible for the 2 people who were killed, but it wasn't premeditated or even intentional. Intent plays a big part in sentencing, so I think there is an important place for understanding and rehabilitation. This situation is tragic all around.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    That's precisely the problem, the guy didn't give a shit about anyone around him. Someone who kills someone over a sum of money, OK, that's understandable, but a drunk driver who doesn't give a shit about the hundreds of road users he encounters on the way home, I don't get that. Skaphismos is too good for them.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      I don't know if you're being facetious with your Skaphismos comment — if you are I think we'll have a hard time finding any common ground. We could argue about the details of the crime, but I think your view of punishment is draconian and absurd. For those who don't know what Skaphismos is, I've translated this from the German Wikipedia: > In scaphism, the victim was ... enclosed in a prepared, clamshell container, except for the head, hands, and feet, and force-fed inside; according to the accounts, death resulted from infection, tissue destruction due to insect feeding, or physical emaciation (thirst, starvation) and blood loss and/or poisoning from insect bites. [0] [0]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphismus https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphismus
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        No, the draconian and graphic punishment is intentional - how do you even reason with someone who prizes his own desires above the lives of all others he encounters? This kind needs to be removed from society, expeditiously. I am a chemist and we take safety extremely seriously - if we didn't property damage and casualties would be a regular occurrence. It's immaterial if you are reckless or clueless, what matters is that you are a danger to everyone else around. Nature doesn't care about your intent.
oars 6y ago
https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_12-30_years_in_d.html https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_1... Alcohol is the worst drug in the world.
screamingninja 6y ago
> Goodness. This sort of time in jail is what you get for murder in parts of Europe Murder as opposed to what?
- sebmellen 6y ago
  You mean in this case? In this case I believe it's murder vs manslaughter [0]. Otherwise, I believe his MDOC page would reflect a murder charge [1]. Murder and manslaughter are quite notably different in their intent and premeditation [2]. If you accidentally (or half-accidentally) kill someone, that's very different from killing them on purpose. [0]: https://www.findlaw.com/dui/charges/dui-manslaughter-and-dui-murder.html https://www.findlaw.com/dui/charges/dui-manslaughter-and-dui... [1]: https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=961096 https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumb... [2]: [1]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637-2.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-mans...
  - screamingninja 6y ago
    You make it sound like one count of murder is worse than two counts of manslaughter.
astura 6y ago
>This sort of time in jail is what you get for murder in parts of Europe Uhhhhhhhh... You know he killed multiple people, right?
- sebmellen 6y ago
  As I've mentioned in numerous other comments, there is a well-recognized and codified difference between manslaughter and murder [0]. He was also not charged with murder, but with "Operating While Intoxicated Causing Death" [1], which I believe is a manslaughter charge. [0]: https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaughter/ https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaught... [1]: https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=961096 https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumb...
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    That doesn't make the two people any less dead.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      No, of course not. Our previous President not having taken more decisive action on the COVID pandemic doesn't make 400,000 people any less dead. But this is, in my opinion, more a tragedy of circumstance than anything else, and that's what our court systems should be working to mediate. This guy, with a strict halfway-house counselling & treatment program, could be solving mathematical problems at a top 10 university right now. Instead, he's locked up in prison for the foreseeable future — what good does that do for the two dead people, for society, or for him? Prisons should be there to house people who can't be rehabilitated, and to punish those who've done things seriously wrong (which may include him, but I would err to think not).
      - angmarsbane 6y ago
        I haven’t read the article yet so I may circle back to my comment here after reading it. What’s stopping him from solving math problems in prison? Math doesn’t disintegrate past prison walls.
chokeartist 6y ago
What are you talking about? This guy killed two teens due to drunk driving, and then committed armed robbery when out of bond. Stop being such a gullible fool. This dumbass belongs right where he is.
3131s 6y ago
This guy killed two teenagers with his car, because he was wasted. I'm not going to shed any tears for this guy when people have gotten similar sentences for small amounts of certain drugs. A 12 year sentence is nothing in America, but hopefully his treatment in prison is humane and he has all the access possible to resources for education, health, and eventual contribution to society. It won't be though, of course, since the US prison system has fostered a brutal environment that causes recidivism, mostly arising out of American hatred of the poor and of dark-skinned people.
randyrand 6y ago
Even in the USA, voluntary manslaughter (murder) can bring about much less prison time. This man got 6 years for murdering and dismembering his wife's father, at the direction of his wife, while the wife got 1 year for her role. https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/No-prison-time-for-San-Francisco-woman-charged-in-15662965.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/No-prison-time-for...

whiddershins 6y ago

Think, for a moment. Let’s all think. Are we saying it is tragic for smart and young people to be in prison but not older or less intelligent people? I’m not messing with you or being snarky. I felt your sentiment keenly and then wonder what exactly I’m agreeing with.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sebmellen 6y ago
I'm sorry if it comes off as dismissing the plight of others, that certainly wasn't my intention. I think being sentenced so heavily in one's youth is arguably more tragic because there's an argument to be made that adolescence is a different developmental period [0]. Perhaps sentencing should take this into account (e.g. a different sentencing bracket until ~24?). Also, there's another argument to be made that younger people have had less time to sort themselves out, and a longer time to redeem themselves or make something of themselves (which I think we see here, not to say an elderly person couldn't do that). With regards to less intelligent people who are imprisoned, I would even say their plight is maybe even more tragic. Less intelligent people probably have faced many more hardships in life and/or had a harder time mounting a strong legal defence (though intelligent people are more likely to abuse drugs [1]). I suppose this struck me in particular because it's a strong condemnation of the stereotype that prisoners are "certain kinds" of people. The contrast is what made it stand out. Maybe it can serve as an example for those who believe you only end up in prison if you are one of those "certain kinds" of people. Again, it wasn't a calculated sentiment, it just struck me how absurd getting sentenced to up to 30 years of imprisonment is, especially as a 19 year-old who probably could've ended up at a top university if not for life circumstances. I also think our justice and prison system is fundamentally flawed and should be reworked, especially for non-violent crimes (which this borders on the edge of). [0]: https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-drink-more-alcohol https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-funda...
- cortesoft 6y ago
  This is true, but at the same time the guy killed two people. Those people are never coming back. Of course, harsh sentences don't always cause a drop in the rate of the crime being committed. This is an awful situation.
- _cs2017_ 6y ago
  Your point is unclear. If someone (non-violent and intelligent though he may be) regularly puts many people at risk of death, and likely will cause many more deaths if left unchecked, what do you propose to do? There is no tool available in the US (or even in less free societies, for that matter) to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics, or to deny them an ability to drive. Installing alcohol detectors in every car sold in the US is technically feasible, but the preferences for individual freedom all but ensure this idea will be rejected (https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-automakers-to-install-in-car-breathalyzers-to-prevent-drunk-driving https://www.thedrive.com/news/30486/new-bill-could-force-aut...). Did you have any other proposals in mind?
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    There definitely are many tools to reform alcoholics into non-alcoholics. There are standard treatment programs like Alcoholics Anonymous [0], there are a number of other rehabilitation programs [1], and there are cutting-edge therapies like psychedelic treatments [2]. It's a despondent (and false) view that alcoholism is untreatable. Also, as it comes to driving itself, France is a good example. There, police regularly do random spot-checks for drunk drivers [3], and IIRC every driver must necessarily carry a breathalyser [4]. [0]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/does-alcoholics-anonymous-work-because-its-form-cognitive-behavioral-therapy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/think-well/201007/do... [1]: https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ https://www.alcoholrehabguide.org/treatment/ [2]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201905/can-psychedelic-experiences-cure-alcohol-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/social-instincts/201... [3]: https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/country-by-country/france-and-monaco https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-eu... [4]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-French-law-makes-breathalyser-kits-compulsory-motorists.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2104252/New-Frenc...
solumos 6y ago
Yes, "equal protection" is a myth.
cm2012 6y ago
A good rule of thumb for how people categorize levels of tragedy is how much "potential" is being wasted.
- softcore_yawn 6y ago
  A better rule of thumb is how much sympathy can be garnered from a prisoner's class, race, and general appearance. Take your average white American, for example, and how they regard people in prison. Upper-middle class, white, looks a bit like them? "What a crying shame, all that wasted potential!" they'll say adoringly, ignoring the fact he killed two kids. Poverty class, black, looks a bit scary to your average racist white? "That thug got what it deserved, glad it's locked up!" they'll snarl instead, about some guy banged up for the rest of his life for selling a few bags of weed.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Two things: 1. There are a number of accounts created in the last 30 minutes commenting on this thread, including yours. Did you just happen across HN? If so, welcome! 2. If you read my other comments, you'll see I'm very much in favour of reforming non-violent drug law sentencing. I'm even in favour of clemency for the vast majority of non-violent offenders. I also think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone in this thread who thinks in the way your strawman/caricature does. The whole point is that draconian prison sentences are a shame and do little do address the core problem (whether it's drug abuse or violent crime). I also think using phrases like "your average racist white" is unnecessarily provocative, and the phrase itself is inaccurate.
gmadsen 6y ago
without trying to seem lacking in empathy it is exactly that. I mourn for the loss of contribution to science and math.
- crenstrope 6y ago
  How about mourning for the people he actually killed? Rather than mourning for the killer finding it more difficult to engage in his hobbies, while he experiences the consequences of killing two innocents.
  - gmadsen 6y ago
    I thought I was more careful with my wording. I do not mourn the killers happiness to do things, just the lost potential to society. Granted I have no idea what potential the two innocents had as well, if they happened to be academics, I would mourn their lost potential as well.
picnicill 6y ago
I think it's more a case of some commenters on HN having more empathy with a person who they assume is like them (young, intelligent, privileged) then the people this drunk driver killed.
threatofrain 6y ago
The more bright and young someone is, the more we're inclined to give them another chance. Is this surprising? Is there a society where this is not true? Germany?

paulcole 6y ago

He killed 2 people. https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_12-30_years_in_d.html https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_1...

sebmellen 6y ago
Yes, I know, but murder is a very different sentence from manslaughter. This was obviously his fault, and I feel terrible for the 2 people who were killed, but it wasn't premeditated or even intentional. Intent plays a big part in sentencing, so I think there is an important place for understanding and rehabilitation. This situation is tragic all around.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  That's precisely the problem, the guy didn't give a shit about anyone around him. Someone who kills someone over a sum of money, OK, that's understandable, but a drunk driver who doesn't give a shit about the hundreds of road users he encounters on the way home, I don't get that. Skaphismos is too good for them.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    I don't know if you're being facetious with your Skaphismos comment — if you are I think we'll have a hard time finding any common ground. We could argue about the details of the crime, but I think your view of punishment is draconian and absurd. For those who don't know what Skaphismos is, I've translated this from the German Wikipedia: > In scaphism, the victim was ... enclosed in a prepared, clamshell container, except for the head, hands, and feet, and force-fed inside; according to the accounts, death resulted from infection, tissue destruction due to insect feeding, or physical emaciation (thirst, starvation) and blood loss and/or poisoning from insect bites. [0] [0]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphismus https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphismus
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      No, the draconian and graphic punishment is intentional - how do you even reason with someone who prizes his own desires above the lives of all others he encounters? This kind needs to be removed from society, expeditiously. I am a chemist and we take safety extremely seriously - if we didn't property damage and casualties would be a regular occurrence. It's immaterial if you are reckless or clueless, what matters is that you are a danger to everyone else around. Nature doesn't care about your intent.

oars 6y ago

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_12-30_years_in_d.html https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2015/06/man_sentenced_1... Alcohol is the worst drug in the world.

screamingninja 6y ago

> Goodness. This sort of time in jail is what you get for murder in parts of Europe Murder as opposed to what?

sebmellen 6y ago
You mean in this case? In this case I believe it's murder vs manslaughter [0]. Otherwise, I believe his MDOC page would reflect a murder charge [1]. Murder and manslaughter are quite notably different in their intent and premeditation [2]. If you accidentally (or half-accidentally) kill someone, that's very different from killing them on purpose. [0]: https://www.findlaw.com/dui/charges/dui-manslaughter-and-dui-murder.html https://www.findlaw.com/dui/charges/dui-manslaughter-and-dui... [1]: https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=961096 https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumb... [2]: [1]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637-2.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-mans...
- screamingninja 6y ago
  You make it sound like one count of murder is worse than two counts of manslaughter.

astura 6y ago

>This sort of time in jail is what you get for murder in parts of Europe Uhhhhhhhh... You know he killed multiple people, right?

sebmellen 6y ago
As I've mentioned in numerous other comments, there is a well-recognized and codified difference between manslaughter and murder [0]. He was also not charged with murder, but with "Operating While Intoxicated Causing Death" [1], which I believe is a manslaughter charge. [0]: https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaughter/ https://quinnanlaw.com/criminal-defense/murder-vs-manslaught... [1]: https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=961096 https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumb...
- cortesoft 6y ago
  That doesn't make the two people any less dead.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    No, of course not. Our previous President not having taken more decisive action on the COVID pandemic doesn't make 400,000 people any less dead. But this is, in my opinion, more a tragedy of circumstance than anything else, and that's what our court systems should be working to mediate. This guy, with a strict halfway-house counselling & treatment program, could be solving mathematical problems at a top 10 university right now. Instead, he's locked up in prison for the foreseeable future — what good does that do for the two dead people, for society, or for him? Prisons should be there to house people who can't be rehabilitated, and to punish those who've done things seriously wrong (which may include him, but I would err to think not).
    - angmarsbane 6y ago
      I haven’t read the article yet so I may circle back to my comment here after reading it. What’s stopping him from solving math problems in prison? Math doesn’t disintegrate past prison walls.

chokeartist 6y ago

What are you talking about? This guy killed two teens due to drunk driving, and then committed armed robbery when out of bond. Stop being such a gullible fool. This dumbass belongs right where he is.

3131s 6y ago

This guy killed two teenagers with his car, because he was wasted. I'm not going to shed any tears for this guy when people have gotten similar sentences for small amounts of certain drugs. A 12 year sentence is nothing in America, but hopefully his treatment in prison is humane and he has all the access possible to resources for education, health, and eventual contribution to society. It won't be though, of course, since the US prison system has fostered a brutal environment that causes recidivism, mostly arising out of American hatred of the poor and of dark-skinned people.

randyrand 6y ago

Even in the USA, voluntary manslaughter (murder) can bring about much less prison time. This man got 6 years for murdering and dismembering his wife's father, at the direction of his wife, while the wife got 1 year for her role. https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/No-prison-time-for-San-Francisco-woman-charged-in-15662965.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/No-prison-time-for...