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> Moxie has publicly said many times that he does not believe in federation or third party clients (and will implement client blocking as well as using trademar

> Moxie has publicly said many times that he does not believe in federation or third party clients (and will implement client blocking as well as using trademark suits if the problem gets big enough) Well that's a shame - I wonder if, given moxie is a member of the HN community, he'd clarify what is meant by that. I had a quick search and didnt find anything.

cyphar 6y ago
[1] is Moxie saying that he is against third-party clients using Signal servers (meaning third-party clients cannot communicate with Signal users). [2] is Moxie saying that he is also against federating with other Signal servers (and implies that they use their trademark aggressively to stop the term "Signal" from being used by third-party apps). Given how explicit he was about this at the time (and the lack of comments to the contrary in the past 5 years), I honestly don't think any clarification is necessary. That's his opinion and while I may disagree with his opinion, we shouldn't pretend that he is likely to change it in the future (or to imply that isn't his opinion on the topic). If you feel strongly that you want decentralised instant messaging, use Matrix (or something like it) rather than hoping Signal will become something Moxie has said he is against it becoming. [1]: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217211165 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco... [2]: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217231557 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...
vel0city 6y ago
Moxie Marlinspike gave a talk at 36C3 about the issues of decentralized systems and why Signal decided to not go that direction. In short, his argument was largely chat ecosystems are constantly evolving but decentralized protocols tend to ossify. Thus, decentralized protocols will ultimately not be able to keep up with the demands of the users. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Lots of people point to email as an example. I'd like to also point out the phone system and its codecs as another example. Most phone calls behind the scenes are using SIP to handle connectivity. SIP is codec agnostic, you could technically use any kind of codec in the RTSP stream. Its a very decentralized protocol, and highly extensible. And yet it seems like almost every time you try and place a call, the only codec anyone else supports is G.711, a codec released in 1972 and hasn't had a major update since 2000. We're slowly seeing G.722 adoption now that the patents have run out (HD voice on cell phones) but even then this is spotty. Meanwhile every other chat platform out there has moved on to more efficient and higher quality codecs because all it took was the chat platform owner to push one version update out. The decentralized communications network is only just now finally adopting and rolling out a _33 year old_ codec. Sure sounds like a win for decentralized systems!
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cyphar 6y ago

[1] is Moxie saying that he is against third-party clients using Signal servers (meaning third-party clients cannot communicate with Signal users). [2] is Moxie saying that he is also against federating with other Signal servers (and implies that they use their trademark aggressively to stop the term "Signal" from being used by third-party apps). Given how explicit he was about this at the time (and the lack of comments to the contrary in the past 5 years), I honestly don't think any clarification is necessary. That's his opinion and while I may disagree with his opinion, we shouldn't pretend that he is likely to change it in the future (or to imply that isn't his opinion on the topic). If you feel strongly that you want decentralised instant messaging, use Matrix (or something like it) rather than hoping Signal will become something Moxie has said he is against it becoming. [1]: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217211165 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco... [2]: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217231557 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

vel0city 6y ago

Moxie Marlinspike gave a talk at 36C3 about the issues of decentralized systems and why Signal decided to not go that direction. In short, his argument was largely chat ecosystems are constantly evolving but decentralized protocols tend to ossify. Thus, decentralized protocols will ultimately not be able to keep up with the demands of the users. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Lots of people point to email as an example. I'd like to also point out the phone system and its codecs as another example. Most phone calls behind the scenes are using SIP to handle connectivity. SIP is codec agnostic, you could technically use any kind of codec in the RTSP stream. Its a very decentralized protocol, and highly extensible. And yet it seems like almost every time you try and place a call, the only codec anyone else supports is G.711, a codec released in 1972 and hasn't had a major update since 2000. We're slowly seeing G.722 adoption now that the patents have run out (HD voice on cell phones) but even then this is spotty. Meanwhile every other chat platform out there has moved on to more efficient and higher quality codecs because all it took was the chat platform owner to push one version update out. The decentralized communications network is only just now finally adopting and rolling out a _33 year old_ codec. Sure sounds like a win for decentralized systems!

deleted 6y ago
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