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I've seen a plenty of "learn Japanese" sites, and always scratched my head wondering what their end goal are. The learning process should accomodate the end goa

by euske 6y ago

I've seen a plenty of "learn Japanese" sites, and always scratched my head wondering what their end goal are. The learning process should accomodate the end goals. Is that to watch Japanese anime without subtitles? To have a deep conversation with ordinary people? Or simply the language is too linguistically intriguing? (BTW, so many languages are just as intriguing as Japanese) To me, a Japanese native majoring in CompSci, learning English has obvious benefits: there are 100x more learning materials, youtube videos, source code comments, and discussions, etc. And they're better. Eventually, speaking English opens up the world. (Maybe that's also true for Mandarin today.) But Japanese? It's a niche market for a smaller number of people. I think learning Japanese is much less practical than learning English/Mandarin, so I guess you'd have to be more committed at it to actually gain something.

stordoff 6y ago
Personally, I want to be able to read Japanese media (mostly games) that have no English release or at best have a slightly questionable fan translation. The games I'd already playing provide _a degree_ of passive immersion, as they often only have Japanese audio and leave background elements untranslated, which is useful and motivating. It'd also be nice to some that do have an English release in their native language. Were I not a native English speaker, I suspect I'd feel the same way about English. Mandarin may be more useful/practical in some sense, but I don't come across non-English or Japanese texts often, so it's not as immediately useful to me. I'm not sure why the language is so seemingly popular, but I suspect the popularity of Japanese games and anime in the West is one of the factors.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> Is that to watch Japanese anime without subtitles? 20-30 years ago, Japan was an ascendant technological nation in which Americans were very interested. Japan had several dominant consumer brands and was considered an AI pioneer. But Japan lost its way when transitioning from pre-Internet hardware products to "software with hardware." So today the interest is probably about reading anime subtitles, or having a Japanese gf. I studied Japanese in SV at the Jetro-related classes, and worked in Japan briefly. https://www.jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/jetro-connects-japanese-startups-with-silicon-valley-investors-at-techmatch-019.html https://www.jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/jetro-connects-japanese-s... What's interesting is that although Japanese non-work culture is roughly opposite that of the West in many ways, it seems we share a "Protestant-like" or at least secular work ethic that is results-driven. You can see that in WW2 - the Japanese Navy was able to build itself into a world power that was briefly equal to the US Navy, and the Battle of the Coral Sea was roughly a draw. Where the cultural values differed was at the very top of leadership, and ultimately the US had aggressive, independent naval commanders, and Japan had Yamamoto (a rebel who couldn't communicate his plans effectively to traditionalists) and Admiral Nagumo (a traditional, hesitant commander who was both inflexible and unlucky - he refused to do a third wave at Pearl Harbor, and he thought the Battle of Midway was primarily intended to capture Midway!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABichi_Nagumo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABichi_Nagumo
rconti 6y ago
It's an interesting question. I'm a native English speaker (American). I began learning French in school at age 11, and did so for 7 years, before taking a few years off, then minoring in it in college. Even now, another 15 years on, with little practice, I consider myself fluent; I haven't forgotten much and it's fairly easy to hold a conversation. That said, television and radio have always felt slightly out of my grasp; movies less so. It's the speed, and the context, and the slang. Learning a language is so much easier when you're younger. I also took a year of German in college, and know just enough to ask questions, the answers to which I will not understand. I've used Duolingo to learn bits of languages before I travel. I would put this more in the "personal enrichment" category. A couple months of brief daily Norwegian lessons before a trip to Norway. It's interesting to be able to piece together bits of information from signs, advertisements, menus, etc. Certainly not something I could call useful, particularly in such an English-speaking country. I've always heard Japanese is much harder for an American to learn than, say, French or Spanish. Given how little time American schools spend on languages, and how many years it takes to be truly "good" at even an "easy" foreign language, why bother at all? Especially as an adult, where the learning curve is so much steeper than it is for a child. At the end of the day, I think it has to be about enjoying the process, enjoying learning, enjoying what you get out of even synthesizing small bits of information when you travel or encounter foreign media. Otherwise, with today's technology, there's simply no way that the average English- or Mandarin- speaking adult learning a foreign language (other than Mandarin or English!) makes a whole lot of sense, unless that person is planning to live in another country.
- mssundaram 6y ago
  > I consider myself fluent ... television and radio have always felt slightly out of my grasp Sorry for the nitpick, however that sounds contradictory

by euske 6y ago

stordoff 6y ago

Personally, I want to be able to read Japanese media (mostly games) that have no English release or at best have a slightly questionable fan translation. The games I'd already playing provide _a degree_ of passive immersion, as they often only have Japanese audio and leave background elements untranslated, which is useful and motivating. It'd also be nice to some that do have an English release in their native language. Were I not a native English speaker, I suspect I'd feel the same way about English. Mandarin may be more useful/practical in some sense, but I don't come across non-English or Japanese texts often, so it's not as immediately useful to me. I'm not sure why the language is so seemingly popular, but I suspect the popularity of Japanese games and anime in the West is one of the factors.

redis_mlc 6y ago

> Is that to watch Japanese anime without subtitles? 20-30 years ago, Japan was an ascendant technological nation in which Americans were very interested. Japan had several dominant consumer brands and was considered an AI pioneer. But Japan lost its way when transitioning from pre-Internet hardware products to "software with hardware." So today the interest is probably about reading anime subtitles, or having a Japanese gf. I studied Japanese in SV at the Jetro-related classes, and worked in Japan briefly. https://www.jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/jetro-connects-japanese-startups-with-silicon-valley-investors-at-techmatch-019.html https://www.jetro.go.jp/usa/topics/jetro-connects-japanese-s... What's interesting is that although Japanese non-work culture is roughly opposite that of the West in many ways, it seems we share a "Protestant-like" or at least secular work ethic that is results-driven. You can see that in WW2 - the Japanese Navy was able to build itself into a world power that was briefly equal to the US Navy, and the Battle of the Coral Sea was roughly a draw. Where the cultural values differed was at the very top of leadership, and ultimately the US had aggressive, independent naval commanders, and Japan had Yamamoto (a rebel who couldn't communicate his plans effectively to traditionalists) and Admiral Nagumo (a traditional, hesitant commander who was both inflexible and unlucky - he refused to do a third wave at Pearl Harbor, and he thought the Battle of Midway was primarily intended to capture Midway!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABichi_Nagumo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%ABichi_Nagumo

rconti 6y ago

It's an interesting question. I'm a native English speaker (American). I began learning French in school at age 11, and did so for 7 years, before taking a few years off, then minoring in it in college. Even now, another 15 years on, with little practice, I consider myself fluent; I haven't forgotten much and it's fairly easy to hold a conversation. That said, television and radio have always felt slightly out of my grasp; movies less so. It's the speed, and the context, and the slang. Learning a language is so much easier when you're younger. I also took a year of German in college, and know just enough to ask questions, the answers to which I will not understand. I've used Duolingo to learn bits of languages before I travel. I would put this more in the "personal enrichment" category. A couple months of brief daily Norwegian lessons before a trip to Norway. It's interesting to be able to piece together bits of information from signs, advertisements, menus, etc. Certainly not something I could call useful, particularly in such an English-speaking country. I've always heard Japanese is much harder for an American to learn than, say, French or Spanish. Given how little time American schools spend on languages, and how many years it takes to be truly "good" at even an "easy" foreign language, why bother at all? Especially as an adult, where the learning curve is so much steeper than it is for a child. At the end of the day, I think it has to be about enjoying the process, enjoying learning, enjoying what you get out of even synthesizing small bits of information when you travel or encounter foreign media. Otherwise, with today's technology, there's simply no way that the average English- or Mandarin- speaking adult learning a foreign language (other than Mandarin or English!) makes a whole lot of sense, unless that person is planning to live in another country.

mssundaram 6y ago
> I consider myself fluent ... television and radio have always felt slightly out of my grasp Sorry for the nitpick, however that sounds contradictory