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> Unless you actually change your mind CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) is a pretty good example of habits being used to change your way of thinking. A habi

by tailspin2019 6y ago

> Unless you actually change your mind CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) is a pretty good example of habits being used to change your way of thinking. A habit-based approach for deep psychological change. There’s a lot of research behind it and in the U.K. it’s a go to tool for the NHS for tackling depression. The principles behind CBT overlap considerably with the principles of habit change that BJ Fogg researches and writes about (aka the Stanford research as cited in this article). Whether it’s health behaviours or negative thought patterns, I’d argue that “hacking habits” is a very valid way (but not the only way) to make positive and lasting changes in your life. I also say this as someone who has drastically changed my lot in life by focusing on habit hacking and behaviour change. And yes, meditation too, and therapy, and lots of excellent self-help books and medication. These are all tools in a toolbox. None of them are a panacea, but in combination (and everyone is different) they all have their place.

deleted 6y ago
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avindroth 6y ago
I don't think CBT or BJ Fogg's methods are a useful source for understanding how the mind works. I have limited exposure to CBT, but I used to do research for BJ Fogg. These models are descendents from behavioral psychology, which isn't all that great. If habits work as an abstraction for you, great. But in general, it is not a good way of thinking about your mind as a bunch of random and temptation-ridden space that must be controlled. If you really understand a habit, it will no longer take any effort to choose to stop (or continue) it. Real change from A to B doesn't require consistent effort to stop being A (which is what all these habit-based models are about). It means you are B now, as if you have always been B, etc. Check out Andre Kukla's The Mind for more info and stuff on memory reconsolidation/focusing. EDIT: Real change isn't you are addicted to video games, and now you set up a really rigid schedule and regiment and discipline to stop playing video games, even though you REALLY want to. You still want to play videogames. It is not the mind that changed, but rather the circumstance (and some periphery of the mind that suppresses the temptations). Real change is actually you now being a person who never really liked videogames in the first place. So bunch of your friends are playing videogames in the living room, and you are more 'tempted' to study for the exam you have tomorrow. Not that this is easy, but looking at habits won't get you to this place (given that you want this kind of real change). But the problem is people think habits are the only solution, and they dominate people's minds on how they think about themselves.
- tailspin2019 6y ago
  I'm interested in your standpoint on this, but I don't agree with the writing off of habit change as a useful approach. > I don't think CBT or BJ Fogg's methods are a useful source for understanding how the mind works. I don't go to CBT (or Tiny Habits) necessarily to learn how the mind works, I already know they are very high level abstractions derived from much lower level, more detailed understandings. (And even those underlying principles themselves are abstractions too). I go to these things because I have decided I want to make a change and they are useful and somewhat proven tools for purposeful, self-directed, behaviour change. > Real change from A to B doesn't require consistent effort to stop being A I agree that real change doesn't necessarily require consistent effort once you're at B. But I believe it will always require conscious effort for the transition, whichever path you take. Sitting down to meditate takes consistent effort too. (I use the word "effort" here cautiously in the same sentence as "meditation", but to go from A a non-meditator to B a meditator definitely requires effort). So are we talking about the effort needed once you're "there" (at B) or "while you're getting there" (going from A to B)? If I learn to drive or play the piano, I start out (A) as someone who can't do these things, and during my transition period I have to exert conscious, consistent, exhausting amounts of effort to try to be "B" - the person who can play the piano or drive. I have to direct my conscious effort to this task day after day, and it takes up all my available mental resources while I'm doing the activity. But once I'm there, I'm there. I am person B. I can drive without almost any conscious effort at all. I can play the piano fluidly without thinking about where my hands are, or even looking at the piano or the music. I have completely and totally become a person who can play the piano and drive a car. Even after years of doing neither, letting those behavioural patterns fade, I will still be much closer to person B than A. This behaviour of playing the piano or driving a car really just consists of a serious of habits, acquired with conscious effort, which are now essentially automatic. This skill acquisition relies on the principle of the brain being malleable, on connections between neurons being able to be strengthened or weakened, and for this to happen not just by accident but as a result of conscious, self-directed effort. Let's now say I'm someone who consistently has negative thought patterns. I constantly beat myself up for screwing up. At point A, I need to direct conscious effort to notice these thoughts and change the focus of my attention away from chastising myself and towards recognising what I did do well. Lots of effort yes, but just like playing the piano, this can eventually become my default. This is essentially the principle behind the practical aspects of CBT. This is top down change, I'm focussing on behaviours first and not necessarily self-image or beliefs, but the change can legitimately happen in both directions. If you consistently behave in a certain way, you start to self-identify as a person who behaves that way, you start to change your unconscious beliefs about who you are. You can change yourself via a bottom up approach too. Focus on changing your identify, self-image and beliefs, and behaviours can follow. Both are totally legitimate approaches and I've tried both. I've found top-down change via behaviours to be much easier, but I don't discount the bottom-up approach (which is perhaps what you are more advocating for?). I tend to think of habit/behaviour change as a way to line up my actual behaviours with who I have decided I want to be. I have a set of values, and I use behaviour change to adjust myself so that I am acting in closer alignment to those values. I think what you might be saying, is that unless you change your beliefs and your mental picture of who you are, then trying to change surface level habits and behaviours may not work, and I think there is some truth to that. But this doesn't lead me to write off the whole field of habit building and behaviour change. All of these understandings and approaches can co-exist. > the problem is people think habits are the only solution This seems to be a bit of a binary statement - I'm not sure people generally think habits are the only solution. I would argue that outside of the bubble that you and I are likely in, there is not a broad enough understanding of how building habits can drive behaviour change. I observe that most people overwhelmingly rely on exerting willpower alone to change their behaviours, and then are surprised and disappointed when the willpower runs out and their behaviour regresses. I think that increased understanding of why it's more important to build habitual behaviours than to constantly try to rely on willpower to drive your behaviour would be beneficial to most people. > Check out Andre Kukla's The Mind for more info and stuff on memory reconsolidation/focusing. I've just looked this up - I will check it out.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

avindroth 6y ago

I don't think CBT or BJ Fogg's methods are a useful source for understanding how the mind works. I have limited exposure to CBT, but I used to do research for BJ Fogg. These models are descendents from behavioral psychology, which isn't all that great. If habits work as an abstraction for you, great. But in general, it is not a good way of thinking about your mind as a bunch of random and temptation-ridden space that must be controlled. If you really understand a habit, it will no longer take any effort to choose to stop (or continue) it. Real change from A to B doesn't require consistent effort to stop being A (which is what all these habit-based models are about). It means you are B now, as if you have always been B, etc. Check out Andre Kukla's The Mind for more info and stuff on memory reconsolidation/focusing. EDIT: Real change isn't you are addicted to video games, and now you set up a really rigid schedule and regiment and discipline to stop playing video games, even though you REALLY want to. You still want to play videogames. It is not the mind that changed, but rather the circumstance (and some periphery of the mind that suppresses the temptations). Real change is actually you now being a person who never really liked videogames in the first place. So bunch of your friends are playing videogames in the living room, and you are more 'tempted' to study for the exam you have tomorrow. Not that this is easy, but looking at habits won't get you to this place (given that you want this kind of real change). But the problem is people think habits are the only solution, and they dominate people's minds on how they think about themselves.

tailspin2019 6y ago
I'm interested in your standpoint on this, but I don't agree with the writing off of habit change as a useful approach. > I don't think CBT or BJ Fogg's methods are a useful source for understanding how the mind works. I don't go to CBT (or Tiny Habits) necessarily to learn how the mind works, I already know they are very high level abstractions derived from much lower level, more detailed understandings. (And even those underlying principles themselves are abstractions too). I go to these things because I have decided I want to make a change and they are useful and somewhat proven tools for purposeful, self-directed, behaviour change. > Real change from A to B doesn't require consistent effort to stop being A I agree that real change doesn't necessarily require consistent effort once you're at B. But I believe it will always require conscious effort for the transition, whichever path you take. Sitting down to meditate takes consistent effort too. (I use the word "effort" here cautiously in the same sentence as "meditation", but to go from A a non-meditator to B a meditator definitely requires effort). So are we talking about the effort needed once you're "there" (at B) or "while you're getting there" (going from A to B)? If I learn to drive or play the piano, I start out (A) as someone who can't do these things, and during my transition period I have to exert conscious, consistent, exhausting amounts of effort to try to be "B" - the person who can play the piano or drive. I have to direct my conscious effort to this task day after day, and it takes up all my available mental resources while I'm doing the activity. But once I'm there, I'm there. I am person B. I can drive without almost any conscious effort at all. I can play the piano fluidly without thinking about where my hands are, or even looking at the piano or the music. I have completely and totally become a person who can play the piano and drive a car. Even after years of doing neither, letting those behavioural patterns fade, I will still be much closer to person B than A. This behaviour of playing the piano or driving a car really just consists of a serious of habits, acquired with conscious effort, which are now essentially automatic. This skill acquisition relies on the principle of the brain being malleable, on connections between neurons being able to be strengthened or weakened, and for this to happen not just by accident but as a result of conscious, self-directed effort. Let's now say I'm someone who consistently has negative thought patterns. I constantly beat myself up for screwing up. At point A, I need to direct conscious effort to notice these thoughts and change the focus of my attention away from chastising myself and towards recognising what I did do well. Lots of effort yes, but just like playing the piano, this can eventually become my default. This is essentially the principle behind the practical aspects of CBT. This is top down change, I'm focussing on behaviours first and not necessarily self-image or beliefs, but the change can legitimately happen in both directions. If you consistently behave in a certain way, you start to self-identify as a person who behaves that way, you start to change your unconscious beliefs about who you are. You can change yourself via a bottom up approach too. Focus on changing your identify, self-image and beliefs, and behaviours can follow. Both are totally legitimate approaches and I've tried both. I've found top-down change via behaviours to be much easier, but I don't discount the bottom-up approach (which is perhaps what you are more advocating for?). I tend to think of habit/behaviour change as a way to line up my actual behaviours with who I have decided I want to be. I have a set of values, and I use behaviour change to adjust myself so that I am acting in closer alignment to those values. I think what you might be saying, is that unless you change your beliefs and your mental picture of who you are, then trying to change surface level habits and behaviours may not work, and I think there is some truth to that. But this doesn't lead me to write off the whole field of habit building and behaviour change. All of these understandings and approaches can co-exist. > the problem is people think habits are the only solution This seems to be a bit of a binary statement - I'm not sure people generally think habits are the only solution. I would argue that outside of the bubble that you and I are likely in, there is not a broad enough understanding of how building habits can drive behaviour change. I observe that most people overwhelmingly rely on exerting willpower alone to change their behaviours, and then are surprised and disappointed when the willpower runs out and their behaviour regresses. I think that increased understanding of why it's more important to build habitual behaviours than to constantly try to rely on willpower to drive your behaviour would be beneficial to most people. > Check out Andre Kukla's The Mind for more info and stuff on memory reconsolidation/focusing. I've just looked this up - I will check it out.