4 ms·

People do care, just not as much. Governments have murdered, kidnapped, tortured, and oppressed several magnitude more people than private enterprise.

some_random 6y ago
Of course, we need to give the common stalker and cutthroat corporations a chance to make up the gap.
- austhrow743 6y ago
  Yeah that’s definitely the concern.
  - some_random 6y ago
    Apparently I wasn't clear enough. The reason that individuals and corporations have a smaller kill count than governments is because governments historically have more resources and freedom of action in order to commit atrocities. In the cases where corporations have had the opportunity, such as colonial companies or the United Fruit Company[1] for a more recent example they have not refrained from any action on moral grounds. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company#Aiding_and_abetting_a_terrorist_organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company#Aiding_an...
arcticbull 6y ago
Oh, I'm not sure that's true. That's a very modern take. Have you met the British East India Company [3] and the Dutch East India Company (VOC) [4]? The VOC even has a genocide to it's name [1]. [edit] Make that two. [2] A lot of colonialism was actually carried out by private enterprise. Substantially all of slavery. Once you reach a certain size and scale, is there really even a difference between government and enterprise - except that the voters control one and shareholders the other? [1] https://historibersama.com/the-voc-genocide-historia/ https://historibersama.com/the-voc-genocide-historia/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amboyna_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amboyna_massacre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company
- giantg2 6y ago
  I think the parent's point is valid - enterprise has generally been less likely to commit those acts. I mean, just look at Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. They killed tens of millions of people. Even in the examples of the companies that you listed, their acts were generally state sanctioned, making government a party to that, and sometimes supplying state resources to commit them. And of course demanding their share of the spoils. I do agree that there doesn't seem to be too much difference between large corporations and government. Also they tend to do a good bit of cross pollination of corruption.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Why is this downvoted?
- paxys 6y ago
  Sure but the private enterprises of the time that you mention still didn't hold a candle to the monarchy or the church.
- logicchains 6y ago
  None of your links contradict what the person you're replying to noted about orders of magnitude. Stalin, Mao and Hitler alone killed over a hundred million people in the 20th century.
- caf 6y ago
  Both of those companies were extensions of the state.
- el_jay 6y ago
  Let’s not forget Jardine Matheson, who in 1840 persuaded the British government to start a war with the Qing Dynasty over their right to keep addicting the Chinese population to opium[1][2]. The Brits got lots of mileage out of that one - Hong Kong for starters, and HSBC, which continues its storied tradition of facilitating immorality to this very day [3][4]. JM itself diversified after the wars and the company lives on as “a multinational conglomerate... with legal domicile in Bermuda”. Kids, if you want to make it big without actually having to challenge yourself too much, make sure you stick to large-scale, officially-sanctioned crimes against othered groups of humans. That way, you get the George W. Bush treatment instead of accountability! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jardine_Matheson_%26_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jardine_Matheson_.... [2] https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Cassan.pdf https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Cassan.pdf [3] HSBC money laundering report: Key findings http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18880269 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18880269 [4] https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-vast-sums-of-dirty-money-after-paying-record-laundering-fine/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-...

some_random 6y ago

Of course, we need to give the common stalker and cutthroat corporations a chance to make up the gap.

austhrow743 6y ago
Yeah that’s definitely the concern.
- some_random 6y ago
  Apparently I wasn't clear enough. The reason that individuals and corporations have a smaller kill count than governments is because governments historically have more resources and freedom of action in order to commit atrocities. In the cases where corporations have had the opportunity, such as colonial companies or the United Fruit Company[1] for a more recent example they have not refrained from any action on moral grounds. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company#Aiding_and_abetting_a_terrorist_organization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company#Aiding_an...

arcticbull 6y ago

Oh, I'm not sure that's true. That's a very modern take. Have you met the British East India Company [3] and the Dutch East India Company (VOC) [4]? The VOC even has a genocide to it's name [1]. [edit] Make that two. [2] A lot of colonialism was actually carried out by private enterprise. Substantially all of slavery. Once you reach a certain size and scale, is there really even a difference between government and enterprise - except that the voters control one and shareholders the other? [1] https://historibersama.com/the-voc-genocide-historia/ https://historibersama.com/the-voc-genocide-historia/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amboyna_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amboyna_massacre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company

giantg2 6y ago
I think the parent's point is valid - enterprise has generally been less likely to commit those acts. I mean, just look at Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. They killed tens of millions of people. Even in the examples of the companies that you listed, their acts were generally state sanctioned, making government a party to that, and sometimes supplying state resources to commit them. And of course demanding their share of the spoils. I do agree that there doesn't seem to be too much difference between large corporations and government. Also they tend to do a good bit of cross pollination of corruption.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Why is this downvoted?
paxys 6y ago
Sure but the private enterprises of the time that you mention still didn't hold a candle to the monarchy or the church.
logicchains 6y ago
None of your links contradict what the person you're replying to noted about orders of magnitude. Stalin, Mao and Hitler alone killed over a hundred million people in the 20th century.
caf 6y ago
Both of those companies were extensions of the state.
el_jay 6y ago
Let’s not forget Jardine Matheson, who in 1840 persuaded the British government to start a war with the Qing Dynasty over their right to keep addicting the Chinese population to opium[1][2]. The Brits got lots of mileage out of that one - Hong Kong for starters, and HSBC, which continues its storied tradition of facilitating immorality to this very day [3][4]. JM itself diversified after the wars and the company lives on as “a multinational conglomerate... with legal domicile in Bermuda”. Kids, if you want to make it big without actually having to challenge yourself too much, make sure you stick to large-scale, officially-sanctioned crimes against othered groups of humans. That way, you get the George W. Bush treatment instead of accountability! [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jardine_Matheson_%26_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jardine_Matheson_.... [2] https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Cassan.pdf https://www.eiu.edu/historia/Cassan.pdf [3] HSBC money laundering report: Key findings http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18880269 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18880269 [4] https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-vast-sums-of-dirty-money-after-paying-record-laundering-fine/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-...