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Just one more anecdote, but this is what turned me off from duolingo completely. You can't just learn words or sentences alone, you have to have at least some g

Just one more anecdote, but this is what turned me off from duolingo completely. You can't just learn words or sentences alone, you have to have at least some grammar in there. You need lists of prepositions and pronouns, and you need a little bit of at least simple rules for verbs and nouns. Yes, it's boring but otherwise you'll really struggle.

Xenograph 6y ago
Not that I disagree necessarily, but to play devil's advocate: kids don't learn any formal grammar rules before they speak their first language fluently.
- jamil7 6y ago
  Well kind of depends what you mean. Kids do years of formal grammar in school here in Germany, the language is hard. Kids take a long time to pick up a language via immersion and they typically don’t need to express any complicated constructs. They also have all their needs met by a caregiver, I know what you’re getting at but it’s impractical for most adults to learn this way.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    To be fair, people were speaking German for hundreds of years without any formal education in grammar. But the key point is that, while it is POSSIBLE to learn a language this way, it is definitely more efficient with some formal training as well, until you can develop the "ear" for it.
    - jamil7 6y ago
      > But the key point is that, while it is POSSIBLE to learn a language this way, it is definitely more efficient with some formal training as well, until you can develop the "ear" for it. Agreed. This is the main point I was getting at.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Sure, but there are two caveats: 1. Kids take about 7-10 years of constant immersion to become fluent in a language 2. Child brains are different from adult brains, and it is likely that the ability to pick up a language in this way degrades significantly after a certain age I'm not saying it is impossible to pick up a language without being told the grammar rules, just that it's much faster if you do learn them.
  - cyphar 6y ago
    > 2. Child brains are different from adult brains, and it is likely that the ability to pick up a language in this way degrades significantly after a certain age. There is plenty of evidence which counters the latter part of this claim (see Stephen Krashen and the input hypothesis).
Clewza313 6y ago
Many (but not all) Duolingo languages, eg Chinese, actually have basic grammar covered in the Tips section boxes before each lesson: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/zs/Existence/tips https://www.duolingo.com/skill/zs/Existence/tips However, this feature is not really discoverable and often the main content that follows is only loosely if at all related.
- musicale 6y ago
  It took me a while to find the "tips" lessons on duolingo but now I always review them before the translation drills and usually find them to be relevant.
- cyxxon 6y ago
  Even worse, it is (or at least was) not available in all methods used to access the content. I think it is available on the web, where I started using Duolingo during a downtime at work, and when I later wanted to continue, I just did not find the button for it on the iOS app (or the other way around). That is pretty terrible for such a basic part of the learning experience.
gibba999 6y ago
I don't find Duo helpful in isolation for this (and many other) reasons. But I've found ~15 minutes per day to be fairly helpful in conjunction with other activities.

Xenograph 6y ago

Not that I disagree necessarily, but to play devil's advocate: kids don't learn any formal grammar rules before they speak their first language fluently.

jamil7 6y ago
Well kind of depends what you mean. Kids do years of formal grammar in school here in Germany, the language is hard. Kids take a long time to pick up a language via immersion and they typically don’t need to express any complicated constructs. They also have all their needs met by a caregiver, I know what you’re getting at but it’s impractical for most adults to learn this way.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  To be fair, people were speaking German for hundreds of years without any formal education in grammar. But the key point is that, while it is POSSIBLE to learn a language this way, it is definitely more efficient with some formal training as well, until you can develop the "ear" for it.
  - jamil7 6y ago
    > But the key point is that, while it is POSSIBLE to learn a language this way, it is definitely more efficient with some formal training as well, until you can develop the "ear" for it. Agreed. This is the main point I was getting at.
tsimionescu 6y ago
Sure, but there are two caveats: 1. Kids take about 7-10 years of constant immersion to become fluent in a language 2. Child brains are different from adult brains, and it is likely that the ability to pick up a language in this way degrades significantly after a certain age I'm not saying it is impossible to pick up a language without being told the grammar rules, just that it's much faster if you do learn them.
- cyphar 6y ago
  > 2. Child brains are different from adult brains, and it is likely that the ability to pick up a language in this way degrades significantly after a certain age. There is plenty of evidence which counters the latter part of this claim (see Stephen Krashen and the input hypothesis).

Clewza313 6y ago

Many (but not all) Duolingo languages, eg Chinese, actually have basic grammar covered in the Tips section boxes before each lesson: https://www.duolingo.com/skill/zs/Existence/tips https://www.duolingo.com/skill/zs/Existence/tips However, this feature is not really discoverable and often the main content that follows is only loosely if at all related.

musicale 6y ago
It took me a while to find the "tips" lessons on duolingo but now I always review them before the translation drills and usually find them to be relevant.
cyxxon 6y ago
Even worse, it is (or at least was) not available in all methods used to access the content. I think it is available on the web, where I started using Duolingo during a downtime at work, and when I later wanted to continue, I just did not find the button for it on the iOS app (or the other way around). That is pretty terrible for such a basic part of the learning experience.

gibba999 6y ago

I don't find Duo helpful in isolation for this (and many other) reasons. But I've found ~15 minutes per day to be fairly helpful in conjunction with other activities.