3 ms·
> those chips aren't running on leading-edge nodes like TSMC 5nm or Intel 10nm (there's no reason for them to). If I were the CEO of a global automaker, I'd be
by baybal2 6y ago
> those chips aren't running on leading-edge nodes like TSMC 5nm or Intel 10nm (there's no reason for them to). If I were the CEO of a global automaker, I'd be buying legacy (22nm and older) foundry equipment
You can, but you would be few years late to the party. There are already dozens of n-th tier fab wannabes riding the trend.
Really ancient fab tools are flying off the shelf like hot cookies. People even scoop eighties era equipment off Ebay, and such.
- totalZero 6y agoAnd yet, several multinational automakers have shut down production lines. Why can't they keep things going temporarily by spinning up those n-th tier fab wannabes? (your words lol) In my estimation, there are few trustworthy foundries that can facilitate the kind of scale that an automaker would need. If you're in a hotly competitive industry, you're not likely to contact some random fab freelancer to do a few runs of some chip you need, even if you have the design and everything ready to go. They're unlikely to do it at the quantity you need, on the timeline you need, to the degree of quality that you need, and with the secrecy that you need. I mean, if you're Denso or Bosch, shouldn't you be able to make your own chips? Auto parts have a long life cycle, so you can amortize the cost of the machinery over many years.
- formerly_proven 6y agoBosch has a semiconductor division which operates a few fabs in Germany.
- totalZero 6y agoThey operate three, and a fourth in Dresden is expected to begin production this year. Despite this, they haven't been able to make delivery of orders to VW Group, who are reportedly considering seeking damages in the eight- to nine-figure range from Bosch for production downtime due to shortages. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-may-seek-damages-bosch-and-conti-over-chip-shortages https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-may-seek-damages-b...
- monocasa 6y ago> Why can't they keep things going temporarily by spinning up those n-th tier fab wannabes? It takes time to tape out over to another node, and by then they expect to not have the supply issue anymore with their regular suppliers.
- baybal2 6y ago> Why can't they keep things going temporarily by spinning up those n-th tier fab wannabes? Years long lead times. Every 200mm fab around is booked for at least 1y+ despite biggest increases in capacity in decades. A labs scale manufacturing can be setup within months, but it takes 3-4 years to setup AMHS fit fabs on a commercially profitable scale invariably of the technology level involved.
- donw 6y ago> Every 200mm fab I know this is a typo, but that would explain the dimensional trend in smartphones...
- sanxiyn 6y agoNot a typo. 200 mm refers to wafer size.
- donw 6y agoAh, that makes a lot more sense than a 200nm chip in 2021. Still, I'm not going to get the image of a city-sized IC out of my head.
- szatkus 6y agoIt's size of the wafer. http://audilab.bmed.mcgill.ca/~funnell/InforMed/Bacon/HW/private/willoner08.jpg http://audilab.bmed.mcgill.ca/~funnell/InforMed/Bacon/HW/pri...
- totalZero 6y agoIt was a rhetorical question answered by the succeeding paragraph. > Years long lead times. Every 200mm fab around is booked for at least 1y+ despite biggest increases in capacity in decades. This is precisely my point. There is a need for more capacity.
- martin_henk 6y agoAuto OEM's have strict rules regarding procurement. Therefore it's impossible to make business with them as a unknown startup. Tier 1 suppliers can introduce un certified sub vendors and such.
- fomine3 6y agoRenesas has own fabs in Japan and car manufacturers and Denso tend to order and use their chips at cheap.
- RealityVoid 6y agoHah! I wonder if I too, could, for a couple hundred grand, make my own little fab using old processes. I wouldn't, but I like to know I could.