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Does this mean that if I give you my cellphone number, you would be able to pay money to see my current or past location? My understanding was that cell phone

Does this mean that if I give you my cellphone number, you would be able to pay money to see my current or past location? My understanding was that cell phone companies sell data in aggregate but not for individual numbers.

corty 6y ago
> My understanding was that cell phone companies sell data in aggregate but not for individual numbers. Santa Claus has a bridge to sell you ;) Even if there are no official channels, I'm sure there are informants willing to sell that data for the right price.
roywiggins 6y ago
No, unaggregated, real-time data is available. It percolated all the way down to bounty hunters before it really came to public knowledge. https://www.vice.com/en/article/43z3dn/hundreds-bounty-hunters-att-tmobile-sprint-customer-location-data-years https://www.vice.com/en/article/43z3dn/hundreds-bounty-hunte...
- ma2rten 6y ago
  I didn't know about that. It seems like there is much less public attention on what these companies are doing compared to tech companies.
  - username90 6y ago
    Because tech companies are still relatively ethical, you wouldn't have so many leaks otherwise.
    - throwaway45349 6y ago
      Agreed, a lot of tech might be data harvesters, but they don't sell location data to bounty hunters.
- tppiotrowski 6y ago
  "Your wireless device can determine its (and your) physical, geographical location (“Location Based Services” or LBS) and can associate your device’s physical location with other data. You have the ability to enable or disable access to such services. By enabling location settings on your device, you are permitting applications on your device to use LBS through software, widgets or peripheral components you choose to download, add or attach to your wireless device or through web access, messaging capabilities or other means, and you are authorizing Verizon Wireless to collect, use and disclose your Location Information as appropriate to provide you with any location services that you enabled. To limit potential unauthorized access to your Location Information, Verizon Wireless offers various mechanisms and settings to manage access to location data. You should review each application’s settings to determine whether you want to enable LBS for that application." [1] From 2018. The wording says "as appropriate" to provide you with services. I'm not seeing anything here about collecting your location to resell. Does anyone have an explicit wording in a contract they can refer me to? [1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/dam/support/pdf/collateral/ConsumerBrochure_EN_11-7-18.pdf https://www.verizonwireless.com/dam/support/pdf/collateral/C...
  - username90 6y ago
    That just limits it for apps on your device, Verizon collects and does whatever they want with it regardless of what you tell them to or what settings you pick on your device since they create it first in their servers and then send the data to your phone.
    - fourthark 6y ago
      That's not exactly true. The phone has GPS, which is precise location data, and independent of cellular service. The carrier only has tower triangulation, which is less accurate but still valuable.
      - tppiotrowski 6y ago
        I believe carriers also have access to your GPS location because it’s mandated by law in order for emergency services to locate you. https://www.vice.com/en/article/j575dg/what-a-gps-data-is-and-why-wireless-carriers-most-definitely-shouldnt-be-selling-it https://www.vice.com/en/article/j575dg/what-a-gps-data-is-an...
thesausageking 6y ago
Most of it is coming not from the cell phone companies, but from third party aggregators that pay app developers to install tracking code in their app. They try to get into as many apps as they can and send back data whenever any of their instrumented apps are able to. Ads don't pay much at all so this is another way for free apps to monetize. The identifier is normally a collection of parameters (device type, home zip code, etc.). The military is likely buying data from these aggregators and combining it with other sources they have.
- tppiotrowski 6y ago
  Interesting. So this is not cell phone tower data coming from ATT, T-Mobile, Verizon. Does iOS grant apps access to your phone number or do these third party aggregators need another mechanism to link devices to phone numbers?
  - diebeforei485 6y ago
    > Does iOS grant apps access to your phone number No - unless you grant access to Contacts.
  - thesausageking 6y ago
    They don't need phone numbers. If the code is running inside an app, it can snap location data and send it to a server. Along with that, they pull in whatever other data they can link. This includes things like what model device, current battery level, home zip code, Facebook id, etc. With these data columns, you can match users pretty easily.
    - diebeforei485 6y ago
      This also implies that device-side firewall rules (if Apple allowed them to exist) could cut off the data brokers' business model.
kevas 6y ago
100%
aaron-santos 6y ago
Sounds like a business opportunity. One for selling individual location data, the other for signing up to make that data private.
diebeforei485 6y ago
Yes. There are plenty of companies using this in innocent ways already. For example if you're renting a vehicle from Avis in the mainland US and need roadside assistance because your rental vehicle won't start, they can use your phone number (if you give consent) to find where they should send the tow truck. Next time you rent a vehicle from Avis, call their roadside assistance number to see this in action for yourself. This is a useful service, most people renting cars are doing so in places other than where they live, and may not be able to describe the location they're stranded at. But it does raise the question of who else is receiving your location information.

corty 6y ago

> My understanding was that cell phone companies sell data in aggregate but not for individual numbers. Santa Claus has a bridge to sell you ;) Even if there are no official channels, I'm sure there are informants willing to sell that data for the right price.

roywiggins 6y ago

No, unaggregated, real-time data is available. It percolated all the way down to bounty hunters before it really came to public knowledge. https://www.vice.com/en/article/43z3dn/hundreds-bounty-hunters-att-tmobile-sprint-customer-location-data-years https://www.vice.com/en/article/43z3dn/hundreds-bounty-hunte...

ma2rten 6y ago
I didn't know about that. It seems like there is much less public attention on what these companies are doing compared to tech companies.
- username90 6y ago
  Because tech companies are still relatively ethical, you wouldn't have so many leaks otherwise.
  - throwaway45349 6y ago
    Agreed, a lot of tech might be data harvesters, but they don't sell location data to bounty hunters.
tppiotrowski 6y ago
"Your wireless device can determine its (and your) physical, geographical location (“Location Based Services” or LBS) and can associate your device’s physical location with other data. You have the ability to enable or disable access to such services. By enabling location settings on your device, you are permitting applications on your device to use LBS through software, widgets or peripheral components you choose to download, add or attach to your wireless device or through web access, messaging capabilities or other means, and you are authorizing Verizon Wireless to collect, use and disclose your Location Information as appropriate to provide you with any location services that you enabled. To limit potential unauthorized access to your Location Information, Verizon Wireless offers various mechanisms and settings to manage access to location data. You should review each application’s settings to determine whether you want to enable LBS for that application." [1] From 2018. The wording says "as appropriate" to provide you with services. I'm not seeing anything here about collecting your location to resell. Does anyone have an explicit wording in a contract they can refer me to? [1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/dam/support/pdf/collateral/ConsumerBrochure_EN_11-7-18.pdf https://www.verizonwireless.com/dam/support/pdf/collateral/C...
- username90 6y ago
  That just limits it for apps on your device, Verizon collects and does whatever they want with it regardless of what you tell them to or what settings you pick on your device since they create it first in their servers and then send the data to your phone.
  - fourthark 6y ago
    That's not exactly true. The phone has GPS, which is precise location data, and independent of cellular service. The carrier only has tower triangulation, which is less accurate but still valuable.
    - tppiotrowski 6y ago
      I believe carriers also have access to your GPS location because it’s mandated by law in order for emergency services to locate you. https://www.vice.com/en/article/j575dg/what-a-gps-data-is-and-why-wireless-carriers-most-definitely-shouldnt-be-selling-it https://www.vice.com/en/article/j575dg/what-a-gps-data-is-an...

thesausageking 6y ago

Most of it is coming not from the cell phone companies, but from third party aggregators that pay app developers to install tracking code in their app. They try to get into as many apps as they can and send back data whenever any of their instrumented apps are able to. Ads don't pay much at all so this is another way for free apps to monetize. The identifier is normally a collection of parameters (device type, home zip code, etc.). The military is likely buying data from these aggregators and combining it with other sources they have.

tppiotrowski 6y ago
Interesting. So this is not cell phone tower data coming from ATT, T-Mobile, Verizon. Does iOS grant apps access to your phone number or do these third party aggregators need another mechanism to link devices to phone numbers?
- diebeforei485 6y ago
  > Does iOS grant apps access to your phone number No - unless you grant access to Contacts.
- thesausageking 6y ago
  They don't need phone numbers. If the code is running inside an app, it can snap location data and send it to a server. Along with that, they pull in whatever other data they can link. This includes things like what model device, current battery level, home zip code, Facebook id, etc. With these data columns, you can match users pretty easily.
  - diebeforei485 6y ago
    This also implies that device-side firewall rules (if Apple allowed them to exist) could cut off the data brokers' business model.

kevas 6y ago

100%

aaron-santos 6y ago

Sounds like a business opportunity. One for selling individual location data, the other for signing up to make that data private.

diebeforei485 6y ago

Yes. There are plenty of companies using this in innocent ways already. For example if you're renting a vehicle from Avis in the mainland US and need roadside assistance because your rental vehicle won't start, they can use your phone number (if you give consent) to find where they should send the tow truck. Next time you rent a vehicle from Avis, call their roadside assistance number to see this in action for yourself. This is a useful service, most people renting cars are doing so in places other than where they live, and may not be able to describe the location they're stranded at. But it does raise the question of who else is receiving your location information.