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In theory I agree with the idea of charging for Co2 emissions, the problem always comes down to the execution, which in general means some kind of "carbon tax"

by syshum 6y ago

In theory I agree with the idea of charging for Co2 emissions, the problem always comes down to the execution, which in general means some kind of "carbon tax" system The problem with the carbon tax systems I have seen most of them are setup in a way not to actually change climate or anything to do with climate change but instead set up to fund unrelated agenda's and often end up being counter productive to the actual goal of reducing carbon emissions / other population.

meowkit 6y ago
Please share said tax systems. Everything I’ve seen is an upstream tax on each ton of emissions. Its not about funding things, its about disincentivizing emissions by forcing the cost of externalities onto the production itself.
- syshum 6y ago
  Well those systems that do not have alternative funding goals also end up being very regressive, if my Power or Nat. Gas bill increased by 30% well I will complain online, and be frustrated every-time I have to pay it, but I will not have to choose between paying the utility or buying food. Nor will it modify my consumption of it, it just means more expenses. I use the amount of energy I need today, no more, no less. Charging me more for it will not change my consumption. That can not be said for others. Carbon Tax's on power generation and home heating have the nasty impact of being very regressive impacting the poorest among us disproportionately We need to improve Alt. Energy to make it cost competitive with Fossil Fuels, and not by artificially raising the prices on Fossil fuels which harms the poor. Carbon Tax systems also end up not actually reducing carbon, but instead allow "trading" of carbon heavily producers with monopoly lock in can simply gouge their customers with higher prices to pay for "offsets", it is akin to wealth redistribution but rather with carbon
  - EcoMonkey 6y ago
    Carbon dividends offset the regressive nature of a carbon tax. In fact, even if you exclude the benefits of cleaner air and just look at how the carbon dividend offsets the carbon fee, folks at the lowest incomes tend to come out way ahead, at least under the Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act: https://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/HIS2-Working-Paper-v1.1.pdf https://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/... > Carbon Tax systems also end up not actually reducing carbon, but instead allow "trading" of carbon heavily producers with monopoly lock in can simply gouge their customers with higher prices to pay for "offsets", it is akin to wealth redistribution but rather with carbon You're confusing carbon taxes with cap and trade and carbon credits. There are no pollution permits to trade under a typical carbon tax regime. Please check your facts before sharing inaccurate information.
EcoMonkey 6y ago
That part about funding unrelated agendas is partially why many leading economists recommend returning the revenue as a flat dividend. The revenue from the carbon tax is just divvied up and given back to everyone as a monthly direct deposit. https://econstatement.org https://econstatement.org This also addresses the other concerns you pointed out below. The dividend helps to both (a) allow you to invest in improving your energy efficiency or (b) soften the blow where you can't. You may remember the Yellow Vest movement when France tried to apply a carbon tax. If France had given money back to the people, they probably would have had a lot more success with it.

by syshum 6y ago

meowkit 6y ago

Please share said tax systems. Everything I’ve seen is an upstream tax on each ton of emissions. Its not about funding things, its about disincentivizing emissions by forcing the cost of externalities onto the production itself.

syshum 6y ago
Well those systems that do not have alternative funding goals also end up being very regressive, if my Power or Nat. Gas bill increased by 30% well I will complain online, and be frustrated every-time I have to pay it, but I will not have to choose between paying the utility or buying food. Nor will it modify my consumption of it, it just means more expenses. I use the amount of energy I need today, no more, no less. Charging me more for it will not change my consumption. That can not be said for others. Carbon Tax's on power generation and home heating have the nasty impact of being very regressive impacting the poorest among us disproportionately We need to improve Alt. Energy to make it cost competitive with Fossil Fuels, and not by artificially raising the prices on Fossil fuels which harms the poor. Carbon Tax systems also end up not actually reducing carbon, but instead allow "trading" of carbon heavily producers with monopoly lock in can simply gouge their customers with higher prices to pay for "offsets", it is akin to wealth redistribution but rather with carbon
- EcoMonkey 6y ago
  Carbon dividends offset the regressive nature of a carbon tax. In fact, even if you exclude the benefits of cleaner air and just look at how the carbon dividend offsets the carbon fee, folks at the lowest incomes tend to come out way ahead, at least under the Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act: https://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/HIS2-Working-Paper-v1.1.pdf https://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/... > Carbon Tax systems also end up not actually reducing carbon, but instead allow "trading" of carbon heavily producers with monopoly lock in can simply gouge their customers with higher prices to pay for "offsets", it is akin to wealth redistribution but rather with carbon You're confusing carbon taxes with cap and trade and carbon credits. There are no pollution permits to trade under a typical carbon tax regime. Please check your facts before sharing inaccurate information.

EcoMonkey 6y ago

That part about funding unrelated agendas is partially why many leading economists recommend returning the revenue as a flat dividend. The revenue from the carbon tax is just divvied up and given back to everyone as a monthly direct deposit. https://econstatement.org https://econstatement.org This also addresses the other concerns you pointed out below. The dividend helps to both (a) allow you to invest in improving your energy efficiency or (b) soften the blow where you can't. You may remember the Yellow Vest movement when France tried to apply a carbon tax. If France had given money back to the people, they probably would have had a lot more success with it.