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Only because developers absolutely insist on building things that way, for some reason I will never comprehend. What's the first thing most people do when star

Only because developers absolutely insist on building things that way, for some reason I will never comprehend. What's the first thing most people do when starting a new project? They ask "what framework should I build this on?" and start their tiny portfolio site built upon a massively overpowered suite of enterprise-level software with a million features they'll never, ever need. Then they might drop in ten or fifteen separate external libraries because using vanilla HTML, CSS, and JavaScript is just "so 1995". Then they start thinking about AJAX and microservices because rendering an entire page on the server side is utterly unthinkable in 2021. Then they cram the site full of third-party services (because your tiny home-brew website will definitely benefit from Newrelic monitoring). Then they might start on unit testing. Finally they package everything up using at least seven different dependency managers, because a Github project without 100 useless ancillary files (grunt.js, app.yaml, travis.yml, composer.json, .gitignore, etc. etc.) is obviously not acceptable. And this is why I hate modern web development.

xmprt 6y ago
I remember reading a blog post about a fake conversation between two developers about web development and one way telling the other about how "easy" it is and goes through a 5 step process of how to build their 1 page website. That was written at least 5 years ago and things have only gotten worse since then.
halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
This is such a tired take. Logic has been moved from the backend to the frontend (again) which has justified the complexity.
- zwaps 6y ago
  I have a slow (apparently) work laptop and the web is horribly slow. Some pages feel like surfin' the pre 2000 web with all that lag and slow loading everytime anything moves. For myself, I would appreciate more such takes.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  > This is such a tired take Quite the opposite. It needs to be hammered into people. Your app isn't Notion or Google Docs. Your app is a form with a login menu and a couple of small logic elements and a date picker.
  - phist_mcgee 6y ago
    So what? Just because your application is simple, does not mean you need to use vanilla tools. Do you get mad at a carpenter for using a nail gun because he 'can more easily swing a hammer'? It is the application of tools not the tools themselves that is the problem. I really can't understand why so many people rag on frontend development as if we (as frontend developers) are just magpies who gather shiny things and don't care about performance or simplicity.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      > I really can't understand why so many people rag on frontend development May be you should try to listen to them more carefully and make an attempt to understand their woes.
      - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
        The problem is, most of those complaining have never tried to understand the complexity (and why it exists) because they've never built a highly complex frontend application! They're degrees removed and just throw stones from their glass houses. Guess what, I'm not picking Spring to make a simple REST api when it takes 5 lines in Expressjs. Why? Spring is complete overkill. So along those lines, should you use React/Redux/Redux-{Thunk,Promise,Observable}/Navigation/etc if you need a simple 2 page site? NO! Jesus christ, you pick the right tool for the right job. There's a reason though, when you have a highly complex app with insane business rules (that could very well be hidden from the airmchair HN crowd) where you need that complexity. And guess what, if you're highly versed in these "complex" frontend tools (spoiler: they're not complex), then it makes building sites, generally, very easy. So go ahead, believe what you want and continue to parrot the "the frontend ecosystem is hopeless, needlessly complex and godless" while the rest of us continue developing with these "complex" tools because they make our lives as developers easier. I'll sleep happy while you wait that one more second for the page to load.

xmprt 6y ago

I remember reading a blog post about a fake conversation between two developers about web development and one way telling the other about how "easy" it is and goes through a 5 step process of how to build their 1 page website. That was written at least 5 years ago and things have only gotten worse since then.

halfmatthalfcat 6y ago

This is such a tired take. Logic has been moved from the backend to the frontend (again) which has justified the complexity.

zwaps 6y ago
I have a slow (apparently) work laptop and the web is horribly slow. Some pages feel like surfin' the pre 2000 web with all that lag and slow loading everytime anything moves. For myself, I would appreciate more such takes.
systemvoltage 6y ago
> This is such a tired take Quite the opposite. It needs to be hammered into people. Your app isn't Notion or Google Docs. Your app is a form with a login menu and a couple of small logic elements and a date picker.
- phist_mcgee 6y ago
  So what? Just because your application is simple, does not mean you need to use vanilla tools. Do you get mad at a carpenter for using a nail gun because he 'can more easily swing a hammer'? It is the application of tools not the tools themselves that is the problem. I really can't understand why so many people rag on frontend development as if we (as frontend developers) are just magpies who gather shiny things and don't care about performance or simplicity.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    > I really can't understand why so many people rag on frontend development May be you should try to listen to them more carefully and make an attempt to understand their woes.
    - halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
      The problem is, most of those complaining have never tried to understand the complexity (and why it exists) because they've never built a highly complex frontend application! They're degrees removed and just throw stones from their glass houses. Guess what, I'm not picking Spring to make a simple REST api when it takes 5 lines in Expressjs. Why? Spring is complete overkill. So along those lines, should you use React/Redux/Redux-{Thunk,Promise,Observable}/Navigation/etc if you need a simple 2 page site? NO! Jesus christ, you pick the right tool for the right job. There's a reason though, when you have a highly complex app with insane business rules (that could very well be hidden from the airmchair HN crowd) where you need that complexity. And guess what, if you're highly versed in these "complex" frontend tools (spoiler: they're not complex), then it makes building sites, generally, very easy. So go ahead, believe what you want and continue to parrot the "the frontend ecosystem is hopeless, needlessly complex and godless" while the rest of us continue developing with these "complex" tools because they make our lives as developers easier. I'll sleep happy while you wait that one more second for the page to load.