6 ms·

Please no! No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted, we want someone to disrupt terrible cars. Modern cars are terrible, the UX is horrid, the software n

Please no! No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted, we want someone to disrupt terrible cars. Modern cars are terrible, the UX is horrid, the software never gets updated, and the look and feel of a good middle class car is just trash. I own a model 3 and love it, yes it has some gap problems, yes structurally it might not be as sound as a Toyota but the car is a dream to drive. The experience is so much better than an internal combustion engine that i'll never go back. There's nothing quite like instant torque on the freeway while traveling 80 miles an hour.

geden 6y ago
I’m asking for ownership to be disrupted. It’s insane we all have our own and they have such low utilisation. They are almost always stationary parked somewhere when privately owned.
- acct776 6y ago
  And keeping our in-transit coronavirus molecules contained. The horror.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Your use case is probably different. But the vehicle parked outside my house is one: - Whose features I very deliberately chose - Has a roof rack that can accommodate my canoe and/or kayak - Has all the stuff I carry around with me--especially for northern winter driving And if I want to run to the store right now, I can be on the road in 1 minute. I don't want fractional ownership and I'm sure I'm not unusual. Most of the depreciation is in the miles anyway. And, to the degree it becomes more related to how old the car is, that will be reflected in the costs.
- lambda_dn 6y ago
  Your car is only second in the place you feel comfortable to your home. I'm at work all day (pre covid) and my home is sitting empty 50% of the time, so why should I own a home, maybe I can just sleep in a shared fractionally owned home. Never going to be accepted, by all means electrify cars and make them smarter and have robotaxis for when I can't drive. But the car ownership thing will never go away.
recursive 6y ago
> No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted I'm asking for it right now. And have been for some time.
cwhiz 6y ago
Well... I absolutely am looking for a car subscription. Volvo created something close to what I’m looking for. https://www.volvocars.com/us/care-by-volvo/ https://www.volvocars.com/us/care-by-volvo/ I just want it for an electric car.
foepys 6y ago
I'm always confused by statements like this. A Toyota runs 25+ years pretty reliably, they have a reputation for being well made. Tesla has large fitting problems with panel gaps, not closing doors, leaky or even loose roofs, bad paint, etc. How do people trust Tesla to make cars that work even remotely as long as a Toyota? I don't want to own a car that I cannot resell after 10 years because it's worn down too much. I'm not advocating for ICE here, I'm talking about the chassis part of the car.
- ra7 6y ago
  > How do people trust Tesla to make cars that work even remotely as long as a Toyota? I don't want to own a car that I cannot resell after 10 years because it's worn down too much. Anecdotal experience, but most Tesla owners I know don’t really care about resale value 10 years down the line. Tesla owners are pretty well off who wouldn’t be buying a Toyota Corolla in the first place anyway. They are willing to overlook reliability issues for an EV experience with considerably better UX than traditional manufacturers (tbf some parts of it are bad too like not having a heads up display or all-touch interface), some shiny features and gimmicks which is more akin to using an iPhone than operating a car. I personally think the build quality is an abomination for a $40k+ price tag car, which is why I don’t own one. But I can see why some people prefer a Tesla for the overall experience and a certain cool factor.
  - kyriakos 6y ago
    Doesn't that mean though that tesla will be limited to people with money to waste or that it will lose a big chunk of its early to the market customer base once traditional car manufacturers enter the game at similar price ranges?
    - ra7 6y ago
      Remains to be seen. I think the hope from a lot of Tesla owners is that they improve quality control so they can stay in the ecosystem.
    - decafninja 6y ago
bnj 6y ago
Personally, in the context of fully autonomous self driving cars, I can’t see how ownership would make any sense any more. If the car can drive itself off to find a charging station somewhere densely packed and leave the streets free of any parked cars, imagine how much space would be reclaimable. I see how it would take a shift in mindset, but the liberation that I think would come with the freedom for the car that drives you to your destination not needing to be the same one that drives you home... I think that’s revolutionary.
- ubertoop 6y ago
  People are disgusting and I have zero desire to share a vehicle with another person let alone thousands of people. There will be no shift in mindset. No. Just no.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Presumably you never get on a plane to fly anywhere then.
    - ubertoop 6y ago
      Pretty much. I only fly when driving would take 6 hours or more.
  - jasonv 6y ago
    I don’t even like getting into my partner’s car...
- GhostVII 6y ago
  How is an autonomous car any different from taking an Uber? I think most people who currently own a car rather than taking an Uber or taxi everywhere will continue to own a car after self driving cars are a thing - there is a lot of value in having a car immediately available to you no matter what, and it's nice to drive around in your car that is set up how you want and has all of your things in it. I think if autonomous cars are much cheaper than Uber it could push some people to get rid of their car due to cost, but personally I would never do that since a cheap car isn't a huge expense.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
crocodiletears 6y ago
Everyone on the supply side seems to want ownership disrupted. It reduces material waste, and permits for continuous monetization in a world where the environment's needs supercede the externalities of productive growth. I'm not happy about it (in fact I'm quite terrified of it). But to quote the IMF in their predictions for 2030, "You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy".
- m463 6y ago
  I wouldn't worry about this too much. Psychology is in favor of ownership - people have hardwired hoarding behavior.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I don't. I find owning stuff a burden. The only reason I own my own house is because the rental sector is so dysfunctional in the UK.
    - m463 6y ago
      So maybe there are more psychological factors. So hoarding, plus a part control, some signaling and a bit of tradition.
m463 6y ago
I think the model 3 UI is terrible too. I believe there should be a status display directly ahead of the driver, and direct controls for critical driving functions. Why can't Tesla relent just a bit - adding a dashboard and discrete single-use controls for windshield wipers, defog, lights and autopilot?
- decafninja 6y ago
  Musk is like Jobs in that regard. Putting stuff on the 3/Y like a simple instrument dash like on the S/X or even a HUD seem to be things he is vehemently opposed to. Supposedly because the car will drive itself, thus there is no need for such instruments (of course we know as of January 2021 that hasn't happened yet and not likely to happen soon). Rumor has it the S/X will lose its instrument cluster for its next (imminent) refresh too. Shame because the 3 would otherwise be perfect for my next car, which I'd like to make an EV.
perryizgr8 6y ago
> Modern cars are terrible Huh! My experience is the opposite. Modern cars are engineering marvels. > the UX is horrid My car's UX is absolutely delightful. I have well defined controls (steering wheel, brake pedal, clutch pedal, accelerator pedal, gear shift, light buttons) that are close to 100% reliable and easy to operate. The car works every time just as I expect it to. No surprises, no bs. > the software never gets updated Why would I ever want to update my car's software?? It works perfectly. It is almost 13 years old and I don't recall ever encountering a software bug. I'm sure I will continue to use this car as long as my local RTO continues to renew the license. > look and feel of a good middle class car is just trash. Now this is subjective, so I'll let you have this one. I'm sure your Tesla is way better to drive than my $10k car, but that's not to say modern cars are "terrible". They are absolutely amazing.
ksec 6y ago
>Please no! No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted, Apple shareholders are asking for more services revenue. I still like Apple Taxi Services better than all of their current services revenue stream direction. I am increasingly siding with Horace Dediu on Micromobility. So Taxi and No Car ownership seems like an extension to that.
- tuatoru 6y ago
  To me, what you wrote reads like "I want other people to rent their cars (from Apple)". That's not very persuasive.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Not that I "want", just a possibility of trends and direction. Here is something I want, MacBook Pro 2015 fitted with M1 and dont touch anything else.
Unklejoe 6y ago
> we want someone to disrupt terrible cars. Not me. All I want is something like a modern day Lexus or BMW, but with a Tesla drivetrain. They can leave everything else the same.
gofreddygo 6y ago
> the UX is horrid No. Car UX is fine by me. I turn the key or press the button that says "start" and the car starts. Each button does what it should on a single press. Wipers, tail lights, headlights indicator lights, brake, pedal, accelerator, everything works as it should. It is an example of good ux that my phone, my desktop , laptop and my server should copy. But they can't because they serve different functions. So just let it be. > software never gets updated Thank God for it. I never have to wait for my car to start because it is waiting for updates to be installed like my laptop does. There is no last update that needs patching for the speedometer to show me the speed. There's no bug that causes security concerns for me. Seriously removing ICE hardware and replacing it with simpler electric hardware was a great move. Lets not screw it up with adding more software into it. Except self driving.

geden 6y ago

I’m asking for ownership to be disrupted. It’s insane we all have our own and they have such low utilisation. They are almost always stationary parked somewhere when privately owned.

acct776 6y ago
And keeping our in-transit coronavirus molecules contained. The horror.
ghaff 6y ago
Your use case is probably different. But the vehicle parked outside my house is one: - Whose features I very deliberately chose - Has a roof rack that can accommodate my canoe and/or kayak - Has all the stuff I carry around with me--especially for northern winter driving And if I want to run to the store right now, I can be on the road in 1 minute. I don't want fractional ownership and I'm sure I'm not unusual. Most of the depreciation is in the miles anyway. And, to the degree it becomes more related to how old the car is, that will be reflected in the costs.
lambda_dn 6y ago
Your car is only second in the place you feel comfortable to your home. I'm at work all day (pre covid) and my home is sitting empty 50% of the time, so why should I own a home, maybe I can just sleep in a shared fractionally owned home. Never going to be accepted, by all means electrify cars and make them smarter and have robotaxis for when I can't drive. But the car ownership thing will never go away.

recursive 6y ago

> No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted I'm asking for it right now. And have been for some time.

cwhiz 6y ago

Well... I absolutely am looking for a car subscription. Volvo created something close to what I’m looking for. https://www.volvocars.com/us/care-by-volvo/ https://www.volvocars.com/us/care-by-volvo/ I just want it for an electric car.

foepys 6y ago

I'm always confused by statements like this. A Toyota runs 25+ years pretty reliably, they have a reputation for being well made. Tesla has large fitting problems with panel gaps, not closing doors, leaky or even loose roofs, bad paint, etc. How do people trust Tesla to make cars that work even remotely as long as a Toyota? I don't want to own a car that I cannot resell after 10 years because it's worn down too much. I'm not advocating for ICE here, I'm talking about the chassis part of the car.

ra7 6y ago
> How do people trust Tesla to make cars that work even remotely as long as a Toyota? I don't want to own a car that I cannot resell after 10 years because it's worn down too much. Anecdotal experience, but most Tesla owners I know don’t really care about resale value 10 years down the line. Tesla owners are pretty well off who wouldn’t be buying a Toyota Corolla in the first place anyway. They are willing to overlook reliability issues for an EV experience with considerably better UX than traditional manufacturers (tbf some parts of it are bad too like not having a heads up display or all-touch interface), some shiny features and gimmicks which is more akin to using an iPhone than operating a car. I personally think the build quality is an abomination for a $40k+ price tag car, which is why I don’t own one. But I can see why some people prefer a Tesla for the overall experience and a certain cool factor.
- kyriakos 6y ago
  Doesn't that mean though that tesla will be limited to people with money to waste or that it will lose a big chunk of its early to the market customer base once traditional car manufacturers enter the game at similar price ranges?
  - ra7 6y ago
    Remains to be seen. I think the hope from a lot of Tesla owners is that they improve quality control so they can stay in the ecosystem.
  - decafninja 6y ago

bnj 6y ago

Personally, in the context of fully autonomous self driving cars, I can’t see how ownership would make any sense any more. If the car can drive itself off to find a charging station somewhere densely packed and leave the streets free of any parked cars, imagine how much space would be reclaimable. I see how it would take a shift in mindset, but the liberation that I think would come with the freedom for the car that drives you to your destination not needing to be the same one that drives you home... I think that’s revolutionary.

ubertoop 6y ago
People are disgusting and I have zero desire to share a vehicle with another person let alone thousands of people. There will be no shift in mindset. No. Just no.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Presumably you never get on a plane to fly anywhere then.
  - ubertoop 6y ago
    Pretty much. I only fly when driving would take 6 hours or more.
- jasonv 6y ago
  I don’t even like getting into my partner’s car...
GhostVII 6y ago
How is an autonomous car any different from taking an Uber? I think most people who currently own a car rather than taking an Uber or taxi everywhere will continue to own a car after self driving cars are a thing - there is a lot of value in having a car immediately available to you no matter what, and it's nice to drive around in your car that is set up how you want and has all of your things in it. I think if autonomous cars are much cheaper than Uber it could push some people to get rid of their car due to cost, but personally I would never do that since a cheap car isn't a huge expense.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

crocodiletears 6y ago

Everyone on the supply side seems to want ownership disrupted. It reduces material waste, and permits for continuous monetization in a world where the environment's needs supercede the externalities of productive growth. I'm not happy about it (in fact I'm quite terrified of it). But to quote the IMF in their predictions for 2030, "You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy".

m463 6y ago
I wouldn't worry about this too much. Psychology is in favor of ownership - people have hardwired hoarding behavior.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I don't. I find owning stuff a burden. The only reason I own my own house is because the rental sector is so dysfunctional in the UK.
  - m463 6y ago
    So maybe there are more psychological factors. So hoarding, plus a part control, some signaling and a bit of tradition.

m463 6y ago

I think the model 3 UI is terrible too. I believe there should be a status display directly ahead of the driver, and direct controls for critical driving functions. Why can't Tesla relent just a bit - adding a dashboard and discrete single-use controls for windshield wipers, defog, lights and autopilot?

decafninja 6y ago
Musk is like Jobs in that regard. Putting stuff on the 3/Y like a simple instrument dash like on the S/X or even a HUD seem to be things he is vehemently opposed to. Supposedly because the car will drive itself, thus there is no need for such instruments (of course we know as of January 2021 that hasn't happened yet and not likely to happen soon). Rumor has it the S/X will lose its instrument cluster for its next (imminent) refresh too. Shame because the 3 would otherwise be perfect for my next car, which I'd like to make an EV.

perryizgr8 6y ago

> Modern cars are terrible Huh! My experience is the opposite. Modern cars are engineering marvels. > the UX is horrid My car's UX is absolutely delightful. I have well defined controls (steering wheel, brake pedal, clutch pedal, accelerator pedal, gear shift, light buttons) that are close to 100% reliable and easy to operate. The car works every time just as I expect it to. No surprises, no bs. > the software never gets updated Why would I ever want to update my car's software?? It works perfectly. It is almost 13 years old and I don't recall ever encountering a software bug. I'm sure I will continue to use this car as long as my local RTO continues to renew the license. > look and feel of a good middle class car is just trash. Now this is subjective, so I'll let you have this one. I'm sure your Tesla is way better to drive than my $10k car, but that's not to say modern cars are "terrible". They are absolutely amazing.

ksec 6y ago

>Please no! No one is asking for ownership to be disrupted, Apple shareholders are asking for more services revenue. I still like Apple Taxi Services better than all of their current services revenue stream direction. I am increasingly siding with Horace Dediu on Micromobility. So Taxi and No Car ownership seems like an extension to that.

tuatoru 6y ago
To me, what you wrote reads like "I want other people to rent their cars (from Apple)". That's not very persuasive.
- ksec 6y ago
  Not that I "want", just a possibility of trends and direction. Here is something I want, MacBook Pro 2015 fitted with M1 and dont touch anything else.

Unklejoe 6y ago

> we want someone to disrupt terrible cars. Not me. All I want is something like a modern day Lexus or BMW, but with a Tesla drivetrain. They can leave everything else the same.

gofreddygo 6y ago

> the UX is horrid No. Car UX is fine by me. I turn the key or press the button that says "start" and the car starts. Each button does what it should on a single press. Wipers, tail lights, headlights indicator lights, brake, pedal, accelerator, everything works as it should. It is an example of good ux that my phone, my desktop , laptop and my server should copy. But they can't because they serve different functions. So just let it be. > software never gets updated Thank God for it. I never have to wait for my car to start because it is waiting for updates to be installed like my laptop does. There is no last update that needs patching for the speedometer to show me the speed. There's no bug that causes security concerns for me. Seriously removing ICE hardware and replacing it with simpler electric hardware was a great move. Lets not screw it up with adding more software into it. Except self driving.