5 ms·

I guess problem lies in this part mainly. Choosing host is more important than it should be. Mainly because hosts are trying to do 2 things at the same time: b

I guess problem lies in this part mainly. Choosing host is more important than it should be. Mainly because hosts are trying to do 2 things at the same time: being identity provider and being some kind of content host in federated environment (moderation etc). Because of this when you choosing a host, you are investing too much. Their future policy changes etc will effect you, you cannot afaik move to another host. (like moving your email) When you give people choice, things are much harder. On other platforms we have few choices depending on what you will publish (media type mainly), but here more like topic based separation, which is making things tricky, as we are humans with many different sides.

andrewzah 6y ago
This is why I recommend self-hosting via pleroma if possible. Mastodon is a huge resource hog compared to pleroma, which can run nicely on a raspberry pi. But yes, the issue gets outsourced to the user, and you have to trust a random individual instead of an entity like twitter.
- bluesign 6y ago
  I don't know much about pleroma, I will definitely check. But when you self host your Mastodon, aren't you losing the benefit of local. What is the point of local if I will be alone there?
  - TheJoYo 6y ago
    I have a single user pleroma instance and I don't check local or federated timelines. I think I even disabled them. If I want to discover new content or users I go to the instances that interest me and explore their timelines.
    - bluesign 6y ago
      Actually that was exactly my point, you managed to separate identity and content by using your own instance. But for average user this will be pretty hard.
      - riffic 6y ago
        A lot of people can put themselves onto the Fediverse with little more than a WordPress site and an ActivityPub plugin. You're right though, it goes beyond an average user's technical capability to do so at the moment. Perhaps Automattic (the current owner of Tumblr) can shoehorn the ActivityPub protocol into Tumblr and find a way to market that system to your average Joe.
      - TheJoYo 6y ago
        That isn't an option for average users on any social network.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        It's a cultural issue, not a technical one. When Mastodon started to take off, one of differentiating factors was about the sort of people they wanted to attract. It's very easy to market to a tribe and appeal to their identity, so it started to stick. One of my goals with communick is to get rid of this idea, actually. I try to make the point that an instance does not say anything about who you are or who you should follow.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Local timelines are at best an attempt to help with content discovery and really too overrated. If the instance is too big, it feels like reading from the firehose and if the instance is too small it is better to just browse the directory and find the profiles that seem interesting to you. To me local timelines only make sense if the instance has a very clearly defined group with some kind of shared access, e.g, a company that has an instance for use by its employees, or a club or organization have some kind of membership. Unfortunately Mastodon's culture seems to about aggregating around instances with a very loose sense of "community" - e.g, "photographers", "open source developers", "lgbtq allies". To me this is - quite frankly - stupid. Not a day goes by on /r/mastodon where someone asks "is there an instance for X?" thinking that Mastodon instances works like subreddits.
    - bluesign 6y ago
      yeah I replied in sibling thread, mostly topic based instances and federation is the problem. (when identity is bound to host) When I first saw Mastodon and topic based servers, I was thinking "photography" hosts will federate between each other, "developers" between each other etc. If you are a photography liking developer, you will have 2 accounts, one in "photographers in SF" instance, another one "developers in SF" maybe.
      - andrewzah 6y ago
        I do agree that because mastodon became focused around specific niches per host, it made things much more complicated for new users. Do I join mastodon.social? Do I join bsd.network? Do I join writing.exchange? Etc. What I realized was I should have been asking: Do I care about the federated timeline? Do I care if my host blocks other hosts at random? Do I care if my host allows certain things (I.e. pornography with or without a NSFW tag, or at all). Do I know who the host is and can I trust them with my private messages and to not randomly ban me? I personally like seeing the federated timeline as I have discovered some accounts through it. But my host absolutely needs to do some filtering because some hosts will allow -anything-. I never really found much use for the local timeline. So for me, hosting was clearly the best option. I do try to get my friends to consider joining the fediverse, and I offer hosting to them to solve this issue.
TheJoYo 6y ago
Users have to make the same choice with any other social media service.
- bluesign 6y ago
  Sorry maybe I couldn't explain my point clear. Think Mastodon instances (hosts) as reddit subreddits. Basically you are creating an account in not universe (reddit) but on instance (subreddit) And this subreddit is deciding, which other subreddits you can see with your account. (fediverse)
  - TheJoYo 6y ago
    I am questioning the presupposition that one chooses to make any account at all. Using your analogy: I don't need to create an account to view a subreddit or reddit. I don't need to create an account to view federated instances. When I publish content on any social network I am always thinking about who it is intended for. I don't post the same things on Facebook that I would on Instagram, for example. Users have to make the same choice of what to publish with any other social media service.
    - bluesign 6y ago
      Yeah but I am more thinking about not hosting your Instance angle. Mostly topic based federation is what I am against. (When bundled with identity)
      - TheJoYo 6y ago
        You might be mixing up threads here, I didn't mention single user instances in my reply.
- incrudible 6y ago
  There is only the choice of whether to use the service or not. If you get banned for wrongthink on Twitter, it does not immediately affect you on Facebook. Twitter and Facebook only ban the more extreme or inconvenient forms of wrongthink. Mastodon servers on the other hand often are Subreddit style echochambers.
throwaway894345 6y ago
It’s even worse than that: it’s coupling a third thing as well: moderation/curation.
INTPenis 6y ago
The choosing host part is exactly why I want to emphasize that nothing has changed in regards to hosting. Just like before someone needs to host the "message board" and that someone needs to be relied upon. I often see posts on fediverse related subreddits of people who are dismayed because their instance admin did something. They expect every instance to be a "Mastodon instance" and follow some sort of rules. People need to be reminded of the internet that was. Before Facebook and Twitter started to run it for them.

andrewzah 6y ago

This is why I recommend self-hosting via pleroma if possible. Mastodon is a huge resource hog compared to pleroma, which can run nicely on a raspberry pi. But yes, the issue gets outsourced to the user, and you have to trust a random individual instead of an entity like twitter.

bluesign 6y ago
I don't know much about pleroma, I will definitely check. But when you self host your Mastodon, aren't you losing the benefit of local. What is the point of local if I will be alone there?
- TheJoYo 6y ago
  I have a single user pleroma instance and I don't check local or federated timelines. I think I even disabled them. If I want to discover new content or users I go to the instances that interest me and explore their timelines.
  - bluesign 6y ago
    Actually that was exactly my point, you managed to separate identity and content by using your own instance. But for average user this will be pretty hard.
    - riffic 6y ago
      A lot of people can put themselves onto the Fediverse with little more than a WordPress site and an ActivityPub plugin. You're right though, it goes beyond an average user's technical capability to do so at the moment. Perhaps Automattic (the current owner of Tumblr) can shoehorn the ActivityPub protocol into Tumblr and find a way to market that system to your average Joe.
    - TheJoYo 6y ago
      That isn't an option for average users on any social network.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      It's a cultural issue, not a technical one. When Mastodon started to take off, one of differentiating factors was about the sort of people they wanted to attract. It's very easy to market to a tribe and appeal to their identity, so it started to stick. One of my goals with communick is to get rid of this idea, actually. I try to make the point that an instance does not say anything about who you are or who you should follow.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Local timelines are at best an attempt to help with content discovery and really too overrated. If the instance is too big, it feels like reading from the firehose and if the instance is too small it is better to just browse the directory and find the profiles that seem interesting to you. To me local timelines only make sense if the instance has a very clearly defined group with some kind of shared access, e.g, a company that has an instance for use by its employees, or a club or organization have some kind of membership. Unfortunately Mastodon's culture seems to about aggregating around instances with a very loose sense of "community" - e.g, "photographers", "open source developers", "lgbtq allies". To me this is - quite frankly - stupid. Not a day goes by on /r/mastodon where someone asks "is there an instance for X?" thinking that Mastodon instances works like subreddits.
  - bluesign 6y ago
    yeah I replied in sibling thread, mostly topic based instances and federation is the problem. (when identity is bound to host) When I first saw Mastodon and topic based servers, I was thinking "photography" hosts will federate between each other, "developers" between each other etc. If you are a photography liking developer, you will have 2 accounts, one in "photographers in SF" instance, another one "developers in SF" maybe.
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      I do agree that because mastodon became focused around specific niches per host, it made things much more complicated for new users. Do I join mastodon.social? Do I join bsd.network? Do I join writing.exchange? Etc. What I realized was I should have been asking: Do I care about the federated timeline? Do I care if my host blocks other hosts at random? Do I care if my host allows certain things (I.e. pornography with or without a NSFW tag, or at all). Do I know who the host is and can I trust them with my private messages and to not randomly ban me? I personally like seeing the federated timeline as I have discovered some accounts through it. But my host absolutely needs to do some filtering because some hosts will allow -anything-. I never really found much use for the local timeline. So for me, hosting was clearly the best option. I do try to get my friends to consider joining the fediverse, and I offer hosting to them to solve this issue.

TheJoYo 6y ago

Users have to make the same choice with any other social media service.

bluesign 6y ago
Sorry maybe I couldn't explain my point clear. Think Mastodon instances (hosts) as reddit subreddits. Basically you are creating an account in not universe (reddit) but on instance (subreddit) And this subreddit is deciding, which other subreddits you can see with your account. (fediverse)
- TheJoYo 6y ago
  I am questioning the presupposition that one chooses to make any account at all. Using your analogy: I don't need to create an account to view a subreddit or reddit. I don't need to create an account to view federated instances. When I publish content on any social network I am always thinking about who it is intended for. I don't post the same things on Facebook that I would on Instagram, for example. Users have to make the same choice of what to publish with any other social media service.
  - bluesign 6y ago
    Yeah but I am more thinking about not hosting your Instance angle. Mostly topic based federation is what I am against. (When bundled with identity)
    - TheJoYo 6y ago
      You might be mixing up threads here, I didn't mention single user instances in my reply.
incrudible 6y ago
There is only the choice of whether to use the service or not. If you get banned for wrongthink on Twitter, it does not immediately affect you on Facebook. Twitter and Facebook only ban the more extreme or inconvenient forms of wrongthink. Mastodon servers on the other hand often are Subreddit style echochambers.

throwaway894345 6y ago

It’s even worse than that: it’s coupling a third thing as well: moderation/curation.

INTPenis 6y ago

The choosing host part is exactly why I want to emphasize that nothing has changed in regards to hosting. Just like before someone needs to host the "message board" and that someone needs to be relied upon. I often see posts on fediverse related subreddits of people who are dismayed because their instance admin did something. They expect every instance to be a "Mastodon instance" and follow some sort of rules. People need to be reminded of the internet that was. Before Facebook and Twitter started to run it for them.