3 ms·

I wake up after about 4.5 hours of sleep "no matter what". Bedtime of 10pm or 2am, exercise or no, light exposure or no, late eating or no - always the same re

by markc 6y ago

I wake up after about 4.5 hours of sleep "no matter what". Bedtime of 10pm or 2am, exercise or no, light exposure or no, late eating or no - always the same result. Then I'm awake for a few hours, then get my "second sleep" of 1 to 2 hours. I've been going like this for a decade without daytime sleepiness (a few oz of coffee and I'm charged up for the day), but these kinds of articles really worry me. I have light sleep apnea, but a CPAP didn't help either. I'm old (60) so I'm considering trying melatonin to replace what I'm no longer producing, but I'm also wondering if I'm missing some other potential "staying asleep" lifestyle factors. Anyone here successfully dealt with the "stay asleep"issue other than with the variables I listed?

porcc 6y ago
This seems perfectly healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep
- markc 6y ago
  I had not heard of this. Reading now - thanks!
carlmr 6y ago
You probably have a very natural sleep rhythm. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleepless-in-america/201609/in-the-middle-the-night-it-may-be-natural https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleepless-in-america...
- markc 6y ago
  Good read, really interesting. Thanks!
loceng 6y ago
If you're overweight at all, even by a little, losing that weight that greatly impact your sleep and health overall. Also if you eat any inflammatory foods - sugar, carbohydrates, dairy, etc - then that inflammation can cause issues with sleep, especially for brain related inflammation, sleep time when brain channels are meant to open up to clear waste; inflammation is linked to Alzheimer's now because of this process.
- sandstrom 6y ago
  The science behind "inflammatory foods" is pretty shaky: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-messy-facts-about-diet-and-inflammation/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-messy-facts-a... https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/05/05/closer-look-anti-inflammatory-diets-13997 https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/05/05/closer-look-anti-inflam...
  - markc 6y ago
    Interesting. I've been interested in anti-inflammation unrelated to the sleep stuff. Sad if there's not much to it, since it seemed like a hopeful no-drugs way of improving health.
    - stephen_g 6y ago
      I think there is still quite a bit to diet - especially in relation to gut bacteria. There are plenty of studies showing Mediterranean diets improving gut bacteria diversity and also people on it tending to be more likely to have better sleep, so I think it might be more to do with the gut bacteria that than the specific ‘anti-inflammatory’ properties of foods (which probably aren’t much of an issue unless you are specifically trying to help manage something like an existing autoimmune disease). A book I just read (Fast Asleep by Michael Mosely) recommended that kind of diet, but said apparently some studies showed that being even a bit overweight can reduce or even eliminate the improvement, so that is one thing to tackle first if that’s an issue. Other ones were a big emphasis on managing stress, and suggestion to try intermittent fasting (even just limiting all eating to 12 hours apparently can help, but some people limit all food to 8 hours and then fast for 16). Trying to ensure that you get a bit of outdoor light exposure, and as early as possible is apparently good too, and I think it’s helping me. I just wake up and sit by the window for 20 minutes. I’m also interested in trying doing a 72 hour fast (just drinking plenty of water taking a bit of electrolyte supplement) three or four times a year which apparently is good for gut bacteria, immune moderation etc. but people should have a chat to a doctor about doing it safely. I’m specifically interested in autoimmune disease because I have psoriatic arthritis, which is almost 100% managed by immunosuppressant but I’m interested in seeing if I can reduce my dose (working with the rheumatologist, not by myself!) but I’ve always been terrible at sleep and am trying to improve that as well (since that can help manage my condition too).
Balgair 6y ago
Try cutting the caffeine intake and see if that helps?
- markc 6y ago
  It's literally at 3oz a day though, so "cutting" would effectively be zero. Maybe I could try decaf since I seem to need a bit of coffee for, ahem, regularity.
  - Balgair 6y ago
    Yeah, that's pretty small as is. Anecdata: I cut out all caffeine during quarantine and I've never slept better. But I was drinking ~12oz a day prior to that. And I also cut out all the other drugs in my life too. And the commute due to WFH. Honestly, trying to say it was one thing that made my sleep better isn't really possible, it's all entangled. But the SO says that caffeine was the major culprit.
e40 6y ago
Dude, this is exactly me. Same age. 4.5 hours. Read for a while. 1-2 hours more. Just this morning, I think I finally diagnosed my central sleep apnea. I was laying there and just as I fell asleep I started awake because I wasn't breathing. My diary has notes about this happening all the way back to last March. This happened to me after my first sleep. To add to that, I've become hyper-sensitive to caffeine. It causes palpitations (started in late 2019). I don't snore, but I have been using Breathe Right strips to make sure I have adequate air flow, and so I'm really sure I don't snore. Curiously, I haven't used them for a couple of weeks (long story). EDIT: if you want to contact me, my info is in my profile
- markc 6y ago
  >just as I fell asleep I started awake because I wasn't breathing. Uncanny. Me too. Also tried every airflow device I could find (breathe right, nose baffles, chin strap, and many more) to no avail. CPAP was a total fail because if the pressure is turned up high enough to defeat my resistance, it just fills my stomach with air (called aerophagia, a common CPAP problem). I'm starting to think the only solution is one of those implanted breathing pacemakers but that freaks me out. Btw, I also had palpitations! I'd wake up with them really bad, probably from not breathing. Going off caffeine doesn't help though. A beta-blocker (6 years now) works wonders. HOWEVER! I just saw a study yesterday that people can have insomnia from beta blockers, and that 2.5mg melatonin helps counteract it. Round and round!
pdx6 6y ago
A sleep doctor can recommend a sleep hygiene work book that helps. Everything in it is obvious, but it helps to have a guide to outline things. I’ve struggled for years, and I still do with waking up like you do. Some nights are perfect though. What has helped the most is: - Sleep study. Awful but it landed a CPAP. Also awful but it works now that I’m used to it. - Quality bedding - No pets and no computers in the bedroom. Everything is off - exercise. Until exhaustion if possible

by markc 6y ago

porcc 6y ago

This seems perfectly healthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep

markc 6y ago
I had not heard of this. Reading now - thanks!

carlmr 6y ago

You probably have a very natural sleep rhythm. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleepless-in-america/201609/in-the-middle-the-night-it-may-be-natural https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleepless-in-america...

markc 6y ago
Good read, really interesting. Thanks!

loceng 6y ago

If you're overweight at all, even by a little, losing that weight that greatly impact your sleep and health overall. Also if you eat any inflammatory foods - sugar, carbohydrates, dairy, etc - then that inflammation can cause issues with sleep, especially for brain related inflammation, sleep time when brain channels are meant to open up to clear waste; inflammation is linked to Alzheimer's now because of this process.

sandstrom 6y ago
The science behind "inflammatory foods" is pretty shaky: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-messy-facts-about-diet-and-inflammation/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-messy-facts-a... https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/05/05/closer-look-anti-inflammatory-diets-13997 https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/05/05/closer-look-anti-inflam...
- markc 6y ago
  Interesting. I've been interested in anti-inflammation unrelated to the sleep stuff. Sad if there's not much to it, since it seemed like a hopeful no-drugs way of improving health.
  - stephen_g 6y ago
    I think there is still quite a bit to diet - especially in relation to gut bacteria. There are plenty of studies showing Mediterranean diets improving gut bacteria diversity and also people on it tending to be more likely to have better sleep, so I think it might be more to do with the gut bacteria that than the specific ‘anti-inflammatory’ properties of foods (which probably aren’t much of an issue unless you are specifically trying to help manage something like an existing autoimmune disease). A book I just read (Fast Asleep by Michael Mosely) recommended that kind of diet, but said apparently some studies showed that being even a bit overweight can reduce or even eliminate the improvement, so that is one thing to tackle first if that’s an issue. Other ones were a big emphasis on managing stress, and suggestion to try intermittent fasting (even just limiting all eating to 12 hours apparently can help, but some people limit all food to 8 hours and then fast for 16). Trying to ensure that you get a bit of outdoor light exposure, and as early as possible is apparently good too, and I think it’s helping me. I just wake up and sit by the window for 20 minutes. I’m also interested in trying doing a 72 hour fast (just drinking plenty of water taking a bit of electrolyte supplement) three or four times a year which apparently is good for gut bacteria, immune moderation etc. but people should have a chat to a doctor about doing it safely. I’m specifically interested in autoimmune disease because I have psoriatic arthritis, which is almost 100% managed by immunosuppressant but I’m interested in seeing if I can reduce my dose (working with the rheumatologist, not by myself!) but I’ve always been terrible at sleep and am trying to improve that as well (since that can help manage my condition too).

Balgair 6y ago

Try cutting the caffeine intake and see if that helps?

markc 6y ago
It's literally at 3oz a day though, so "cutting" would effectively be zero. Maybe I could try decaf since I seem to need a bit of coffee for, ahem, regularity.
- Balgair 6y ago
  Yeah, that's pretty small as is. Anecdata: I cut out all caffeine during quarantine and I've never slept better. But I was drinking ~12oz a day prior to that. And I also cut out all the other drugs in my life too. And the commute due to WFH. Honestly, trying to say it was one thing that made my sleep better isn't really possible, it's all entangled. But the SO says that caffeine was the major culprit.

e40 6y ago

Dude, this is exactly me. Same age. 4.5 hours. Read for a while. 1-2 hours more. Just this morning, I think I finally diagnosed my central sleep apnea. I was laying there and just as I fell asleep I started awake because I wasn't breathing. My diary has notes about this happening all the way back to last March. This happened to me after my first sleep. To add to that, I've become hyper-sensitive to caffeine. It causes palpitations (started in late 2019). I don't snore, but I have been using Breathe Right strips to make sure I have adequate air flow, and so I'm really sure I don't snore. Curiously, I haven't used them for a couple of weeks (long story). EDIT: if you want to contact me, my info is in my profile

markc 6y ago
>just as I fell asleep I started awake because I wasn't breathing. Uncanny. Me too. Also tried every airflow device I could find (breathe right, nose baffles, chin strap, and many more) to no avail. CPAP was a total fail because if the pressure is turned up high enough to defeat my resistance, it just fills my stomach with air (called aerophagia, a common CPAP problem). I'm starting to think the only solution is one of those implanted breathing pacemakers but that freaks me out. Btw, I also had palpitations! I'd wake up with them really bad, probably from not breathing. Going off caffeine doesn't help though. A beta-blocker (6 years now) works wonders. HOWEVER! I just saw a study yesterday that people can have insomnia from beta blockers, and that 2.5mg melatonin helps counteract it. Round and round!

pdx6 6y ago

A sleep doctor can recommend a sleep hygiene work book that helps. Everything in it is obvious, but it helps to have a guide to outline things. I’ve struggled for years, and I still do with waking up like you do. Some nights are perfect though. What has helped the most is: - Sleep study. Awful but it landed a CPAP. Also awful but it works now that I’m used to it. - Quality bedding - No pets and no computers in the bedroom. Everything is off - exercise. Until exhaustion if possible