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Stress resilience is one of the most important things when it comes to knowledge work, also one of the most neglected aspect. Mindfulness, stoicism, exercise he

Stress resilience is one of the most important things when it comes to knowledge work, also one of the most neglected aspect. Mindfulness, stoicism, exercise help, but nothing helps as much as a good night sleep. Also the other thing people usually fail to note is the vicious stress-sleep cycle (lack of sleep induced stress <-> stress induced lack of sleep). It took me years to realize that so much of my problems with bedtime revenge, burnout, non-clinical depression, permastress was basically just lack of quality sleep. FWIW, it helps to think of productivity in terms of sleep and stress when you are working in the knowledge economy. Just like sleep debt, you can also accumulate productivity debt due to lack of stress resilience, lack of sleep, which can eventually lead to things like burnout.

reedf1 6y ago
I think it goes beyond resilience, at least for me. Sleep is required to experience a state without stress.
hutzlibu 6y ago
The thing is, that when you have a high level of stress, you will find it hard to sleep well. "Mindfulness, stoicism, exercise help, but nothing helps as much as a good night sleep" So those are very connected. If you practice mindfulness and work out in a healthy way. And be conscious when and how you go to sleep ... things will improve.
- johnnujler 6y ago
  I think this is an issue of interpretation.OP does say that mindfulness/exercise/stoicism are helpful and also talks about the sleep-stress deadlock. I think what they are saying is that although these activities help, you need your mind to be in a decent shape to sustain these practices, which can only be achieved through quality sleep. This is to say that even if you have a good meditation practice or an exercise routine, if you don’t focus on getting your sleep back on track, you’ll never be able to handle stress in the long run.
hyperpallium2 6y ago
> revenge bedtime procrastination: a phenomenon in which people who don't have much control over their daytime life refuse to sleep early in order to regain some sense of freedom during late night hours.
- hnick 6y ago
  For me, it started as more of a reverse-Christmas situation - if I go to sleep, the next thing I know I'll be having to got to work and I really don't want that! Which sometimes lead to the strange situation of going to bed earlier on weekends.
koheripbal 6y ago
During a very difficult time in my life recently, I found it impossible to sleep. I would have stress nightmares and even when i did fall asleep, I would soon wake myself up with specific scenarios my mind was trying to work out. I was incapacitated by this, which exacerbated my situation. I eventually noticed that I could fall asleep if I sat with my daughters while they watched TV. This evolved to me falling asleep with the TV on. ...but the light, noise, and discomfort of the couch made this poor quality sleep. Which then evolved to me falling asleep in bed with earphones on just listening to old tv, not watching. But I noticed that as soon as the tv show stopped, I would have nightmares again. This evolved into me selecting 8 hours of movies that, on low volume, keep me asleep all night and I've essentially solved my sleep problem - despite this stressful situation persists. My colleagues has instead started taking prescription sleeping pills. I have found that selection of audio is important. It cannot be interesting or novel. It cannot be sound only - there must be speech. It must be content you enjoy, but have seen multiple times before. ...and it must have peaceful audio without screaming, shooting, abrupt sounds. Interestingly, I no longer dream at all. The audio has essentially supplanted dreaming. I know this because on the occasions that the audio fails, my dreams return and are a notable experience. I have been doing this for over 6 months now. 8 solid hours of sleep per night on the same programming all night. No ill effects noted. It has been instrumental in coping. Food for thought. It seems stress caused insomnia can be cured without drugs, and dreams are optional for humans.
- PKop 6y ago
  Sounds similar to why many watch these types of videos: [0] I can attest to it being very effective at inducing sleepiness. Here's a representative type that seems to work very well at making me fall asleep: [1] As a sibling comment mentions, the old Joy of Painting videos by Bob Ross were early forms of this. He's kind of the unofficial godfather of ASMR [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASMR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASMR [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jomUOcwqchA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jomUOcwqchA
- sedgjh23 6y ago
  I am sorry you are going through this. Thank you for sharing.
einpoklum 6y ago
Wow, "revenge bedtime procrastination" is such an apt term (not being cynical). In Chinese, it's a single, uhm, guess you could call it a word: 報復性熬夜 See also: https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/advice/living/article/3113045/what-revenge-bedtime-procrastination-and-why-do-we-do-it https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/advice/living/article/31130...
closeparen 6y ago
I get a lot more done as a knowledge worker than I ever did in college, because in the real world nobody cares if something is a day or three later than the nominal deadline, and “this turned out to be harder than I anticipated” is a legitimate excuse. Consequently I never start the cycle of staying up to meet a deadline and then blowing the next deadline because I was trying to work on it sleep deprived. This is easy to recognize from outside but at the time I did not really understand the problem, I thought it was just my capability/identity and the inherent difficulty of the work.
- mcbuilder 6y ago
  In the real world, 2 or 3 days doesn't mean a failing grade most of the time. However, when you start to get 2 to 3 weeks behind the deadline in the real world there is no escape hatch. Worst case in college, you submit the later assignment, settle for a D, and vow to study hard for the final. In the real world, you manager calls you to his office, asks you why you're weeks behind, it's going down now in your evaluation. Maybe you're in a start up, you loose that crucial client, now you're wondering how to pay your expenses as well. You have a family, kids, the stress compounds, pretty soon you're a mess at home and at work. And, I've got 12 years of higher education under my belt. When I made the final push for my PhD thesis corrections, I stayed up 4 days straight right before the deadline dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's. 6 years into the "real world", I often look back on that time as the good ole days.
  - yowlingcat 6y ago
    > In the real world Do we just live in the different real worlds? Because in my real world, deadlines are almost always arbitrary and fungible so long as the right kind of communication is made -- the only times I've seen that not be the case for me/folks in my network is 1) when they're working on something that's actually time critical (rare but does happen) and 2) when they're working in a dysfunctional, top-down environment (far more common). I can't help but raise an eyebrow at the idea that you might lose a client by missing a deadline by 2-3 weeks (rather than not selling them well enough). Is this a hypothetical situation you're talking about? Sometimes, 2-3 weeks is as fast as they'll get back to you with a single hop of communication. The other example of engineers get down-evaluated for ending up jumping on the grenade of a task that gets significantly longer (sometimes by months) -- I do see that happen from time to time but whether the manager down-evaluates is often inversely correlated with that manager/management chain's capability. The good managers understand that scope creep and an unforeseen gotchas happen; they don't want to take those instances as failures but rather . > When I made the final push for my PhD thesis corrections, I stayed up 4 days straight right before the deadline dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's. 6 years into the "real world", I often look back on that time as the good ole days. Why? That sounds like unproductive, unhealthy self-martyrship. It's the complete opposite of how a competent professional works through things. Do you simply like to suffer? There's a reason people don't work like that in the "real world" and it's because there are actual real dollars on the line and competent organizations understand that such behavior purely results in expensive unforced errors.
Spooky23 6y ago
The other thing is that if you’re not an individual contributor, trust your people and let go of things. I once made the mistake of absorbing lots of accountability for things under the misguided instinct of “protecting” people. My role changed quickly as a result of a crisis and the world seemed to change. The reality was that it was really a type of selfishness and pride. After a few weeks I got to a point where I thought I had a physical problem — I basically had no short term memory. Took me a bit for my thick skull to grasp, but once it clicked it ended up being fairly easy to fix.
aantix 6y ago
You're leaving out nutritional deficiencies. Specifically, magnesium, for which most are deficient. When you increase your levels of magnesium, suddenly it's easier to be present, meditate, mental endurance increases, you can endure much more mental stress. If you're deficient, it can lead to a bad, downward spiral. Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3672/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3672/htm "The idea of a bidirectional relationship between magnesium and stress was first introduced by Galland and Seelig, in the early 1990s [9,10] and then referred to as the vicious circle. This vicious circle implies that stress can increase magnesium loss, causing a deficiency; in turn, magnesium deficiency can enhance the body’s susceptibility to stress"
notacoward 6y ago
> nothing helps as much as a good night sleep ...so of course a lot of tech companies absolutely wreck their employees' sleep habits with crunch times, oncall requirements, notifications around the clock, etc.

reedf1 6y ago

I think it goes beyond resilience, at least for me. Sleep is required to experience a state without stress.

hutzlibu 6y ago

The thing is, that when you have a high level of stress, you will find it hard to sleep well. "Mindfulness, stoicism, exercise help, but nothing helps as much as a good night sleep" So those are very connected. If you practice mindfulness and work out in a healthy way. And be conscious when and how you go to sleep ... things will improve.

johnnujler 6y ago
I think this is an issue of interpretation.OP does say that mindfulness/exercise/stoicism are helpful and also talks about the sleep-stress deadlock. I think what they are saying is that although these activities help, you need your mind to be in a decent shape to sustain these practices, which can only be achieved through quality sleep. This is to say that even if you have a good meditation practice or an exercise routine, if you don’t focus on getting your sleep back on track, you’ll never be able to handle stress in the long run.

hyperpallium2 6y ago

> revenge bedtime procrastination: a phenomenon in which people who don't have much control over their daytime life refuse to sleep early in order to regain some sense of freedom during late night hours.

hnick 6y ago
For me, it started as more of a reverse-Christmas situation - if I go to sleep, the next thing I know I'll be having to got to work and I really don't want that! Which sometimes lead to the strange situation of going to bed earlier on weekends.

koheripbal 6y ago

During a very difficult time in my life recently, I found it impossible to sleep. I would have stress nightmares and even when i did fall asleep, I would soon wake myself up with specific scenarios my mind was trying to work out. I was incapacitated by this, which exacerbated my situation. I eventually noticed that I could fall asleep if I sat with my daughters while they watched TV. This evolved to me falling asleep with the TV on. ...but the light, noise, and discomfort of the couch made this poor quality sleep. Which then evolved to me falling asleep in bed with earphones on just listening to old tv, not watching. But I noticed that as soon as the tv show stopped, I would have nightmares again. This evolved into me selecting 8 hours of movies that, on low volume, keep me asleep all night and I've essentially solved my sleep problem - despite this stressful situation persists. My colleagues has instead started taking prescription sleeping pills. I have found that selection of audio is important. It cannot be interesting or novel. It cannot be sound only - there must be speech. It must be content you enjoy, but have seen multiple times before. ...and it must have peaceful audio without screaming, shooting, abrupt sounds. Interestingly, I no longer dream at all. The audio has essentially supplanted dreaming. I know this because on the occasions that the audio fails, my dreams return and are a notable experience. I have been doing this for over 6 months now. 8 solid hours of sleep per night on the same programming all night. No ill effects noted. It has been instrumental in coping. Food for thought. It seems stress caused insomnia can be cured without drugs, and dreams are optional for humans.

PKop 6y ago
Sounds similar to why many watch these types of videos: [0] I can attest to it being very effective at inducing sleepiness. Here's a representative type that seems to work very well at making me fall asleep: [1] As a sibling comment mentions, the old Joy of Painting videos by Bob Ross were early forms of this. He's kind of the unofficial godfather of ASMR [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASMR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASMR [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jomUOcwqchA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jomUOcwqchA
sedgjh23 6y ago
I am sorry you are going through this. Thank you for sharing.

einpoklum 6y ago

Wow, "revenge bedtime procrastination" is such an apt term (not being cynical). In Chinese, it's a single, uhm, guess you could call it a word: 報復性熬夜 See also: https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/advice/living/article/3113045/what-revenge-bedtime-procrastination-and-why-do-we-do-it https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/advice/living/article/31130...

closeparen 6y ago

I get a lot more done as a knowledge worker than I ever did in college, because in the real world nobody cares if something is a day or three later than the nominal deadline, and “this turned out to be harder than I anticipated” is a legitimate excuse. Consequently I never start the cycle of staying up to meet a deadline and then blowing the next deadline because I was trying to work on it sleep deprived. This is easy to recognize from outside but at the time I did not really understand the problem, I thought it was just my capability/identity and the inherent difficulty of the work.

mcbuilder 6y ago
In the real world, 2 or 3 days doesn't mean a failing grade most of the time. However, when you start to get 2 to 3 weeks behind the deadline in the real world there is no escape hatch. Worst case in college, you submit the later assignment, settle for a D, and vow to study hard for the final. In the real world, you manager calls you to his office, asks you why you're weeks behind, it's going down now in your evaluation. Maybe you're in a start up, you loose that crucial client, now you're wondering how to pay your expenses as well. You have a family, kids, the stress compounds, pretty soon you're a mess at home and at work. And, I've got 12 years of higher education under my belt. When I made the final push for my PhD thesis corrections, I stayed up 4 days straight right before the deadline dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's. 6 years into the "real world", I often look back on that time as the good ole days.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  > In the real world Do we just live in the different real worlds? Because in my real world, deadlines are almost always arbitrary and fungible so long as the right kind of communication is made -- the only times I've seen that not be the case for me/folks in my network is 1) when they're working on something that's actually time critical (rare but does happen) and 2) when they're working in a dysfunctional, top-down environment (far more common). I can't help but raise an eyebrow at the idea that you might lose a client by missing a deadline by 2-3 weeks (rather than not selling them well enough). Is this a hypothetical situation you're talking about? Sometimes, 2-3 weeks is as fast as they'll get back to you with a single hop of communication. The other example of engineers get down-evaluated for ending up jumping on the grenade of a task that gets significantly longer (sometimes by months) -- I do see that happen from time to time but whether the manager down-evaluates is often inversely correlated with that manager/management chain's capability. The good managers understand that scope creep and an unforeseen gotchas happen; they don't want to take those instances as failures but rather . > When I made the final push for my PhD thesis corrections, I stayed up 4 days straight right before the deadline dotting my 'i's and crossing my 't's. 6 years into the "real world", I often look back on that time as the good ole days. Why? That sounds like unproductive, unhealthy self-martyrship. It's the complete opposite of how a competent professional works through things. Do you simply like to suffer? There's a reason people don't work like that in the "real world" and it's because there are actual real dollars on the line and competent organizations understand that such behavior purely results in expensive unforced errors.

Spooky23 6y ago

The other thing is that if you’re not an individual contributor, trust your people and let go of things. I once made the mistake of absorbing lots of accountability for things under the misguided instinct of “protecting” people. My role changed quickly as a result of a crisis and the world seemed to change. The reality was that it was really a type of selfishness and pride. After a few weeks I got to a point where I thought I had a physical problem — I basically had no short term memory. Took me a bit for my thick skull to grasp, but once it clicked it ended up being fairly easy to fix.

aantix 6y ago

You're leaving out nutritional deficiencies. Specifically, magnesium, for which most are deficient. When you increase your levels of magnesium, suddenly it's easier to be present, meditate, mental endurance increases, you can endure much more mental stress. If you're deficient, it can lead to a bad, downward spiral. Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3672/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3672/htm "The idea of a bidirectional relationship between magnesium and stress was first introduced by Galland and Seelig, in the early 1990s [9,10] and then referred to as the vicious circle. This vicious circle implies that stress can increase magnesium loss, causing a deficiency; in turn, magnesium deficiency can enhance the body’s susceptibility to stress"

notacoward 6y ago

> nothing helps as much as a good night sleep ...so of course a lot of tech companies absolutely wreck their employees' sleep habits with crunch times, oncall requirements, notifications around the clock, etc.