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>The refusal to gather statistics on ethno-racial diversity is unusual Is this true? I don't understand why any country would want to open the box of pandora t

>The refusal to gather statistics on ethno-racial diversity is unusual Is this true? I don't understand why any country would want to open the box of pandora that is gathering statistics on ethno-racial diversity. I always thought countries like the USA and China were the exception.

sheefrex 6y ago
As far as I'm aware, France and to a lesser degree Germany also don't collect this information. > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/france-and-germany-urged-to-rethink-reluctance-to-gather-ethnicity-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/france-and-ger...
- kebman 6y ago
  AFAIK Sweden does not collect such information either. Norway does, however.
azernik 6y ago
Just off the top of my head for countries that also track ethnicity/race in government statistics: Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics), Germany (under the euphemism "migration background"), Russia, Israel, Lebanon... Ethnicity is an extremely important identity category, and if you want to manage that diversity you need information.
- ginko 6y ago
  >Germany (under the euphemism "migration background") That's very different from the US keeping track of race though. After a generation there's no way for the German government to tell the children from naturalized citizens from other German citizens.
  - tpush 6y ago
    > That's very different from the US keeping track of race though. You'll also never see a German statistic even using the word "race" for humans beings.
    - azernik 6y ago
      The use of "race" for ethnicity is indeed a uniquely American thing; most of the countries I've mentioned use "ethnicity" or "nationality".
      - kelnos 6y ago
        It's even weirder: in the US, ethnicity is a separate official category from race that has two buckets: either "hispanic or latino" or "not hispanic or latino". Which... what?
        notfromhere 6y ago
        The US tracks ethnicity and race separately, and tracks Hispanic origin as the main driver of population growth is Hispanic migration
        azernik 6y ago
        US got its initial Latino population from conquering bits of Mexico; and while in the US Latinos were a separate ethnic group from Anglos, the internal "racial" divisions in Mexican society between criollos and mestizos were important enough to collect data on. (And criollos considered themselves "white" and were unlikely to mark themselves as "Hispanic" if it were presented as a separate option.) US ethnic relations are weird.
    - nxpnsv 6y ago
      not for recent stats in any case...
  - azernik 6y ago
    "Migration background" is defined as by the Statistisches Bundesamt as anyone having at least one grandparent who immigrated after 1949. We're only just getting into the period where descendants of e.g. Croatian immigrants of the '50s are not classified as being of "Migration background". This is, of course, only used for statistical purposes; this information isn't tracked on an individual basis for use in any day-to-day decisions.
  - parineum 6y ago
    The German government doesn't know who it's citizen's parents are?
- CorrectHorseBat 6y ago
  >Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics) No we don't? Those divisions are entirely decided by the place where you live and for a few things in Brussels your language proficiency/the language you choose. For the rest only (original) nationality and place of birth (and those of your parents) are taken into account for statistics.
- astrobe_ 6y ago
  France. No government agency can mention or ask about ethnicity - in particular, our national statistics agency, the INSEE. Private organizations can, but this is not often seen. I think its an heritage from WWII, in particular the "yellow star". France refuses to consider racial differences (and religious differences too), it seeks unity in everything, to the point that it almost drove local languages to extinction. > Ethnicity is an extremely important identity category, and if you want to manage that diversity you need information. As a french person I object to this. It's all about culture, not face features. If you want to study "communities", don't look at the face, look inside the head. And the idea that a government would "manage" ethnicity is exactly the kind of thing that repulses us.
  - jeromegv 6y ago
    If France is so blind to ethnicity, would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? Access to employment, interaction with police, visibility in medias, access to politic circles etc. What you describe is the French dream but is that somewhat a reality?
    - astrobe_ 6y ago
      I am not quite sure what you are getting at. Yes, this is the french ideal (and it's not so special, really), and yes, we are not here yet wrt to discrimination, be it for race, gender or sexuality. This is what the majority of the french people vote for, but of course not all french people agree with that, unfortunately.
    - brmgb 6y ago
      > would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? You are committing the American mistake of thinking that people sharing a skin colour also share a culture. There will be a tremendous amount of cultural difference between a black Senegalese who is a first generation immigrant and someone from the Reunion whose great grand parents were already all French citizens. You don't need to collect ethnicity based statistics and start treating people differently based on the color of their skin to fight racism.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > Just off the top of my head for countries that also track ethnicity/race in government statistics: Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics), Germany (under the euphemism "migration background") That is the point. They don't track race; they track country of birth, as does Japan. — this is an objective standard. The U.S.A. is rather unique in that it tracks subjective, self-reported race.
  - azernik 6y ago
    Russia and Israel track "ethnicity" based on, respectively, self-identification and the internal membership rules of each ethnic group.
johncoltrane 6y ago
Here is one reason: basing policies on actual facts rather than dogma.
kome 6y ago
"The refusal to gather statistics on ethno-racial diversity is unusual" Not gathering racial statistics is the norm in continental Europe. It's mostly Anglo-Saxon people (us, uk) and their love for the idea of "race" that is the exception.
- vanilla-almond 6y ago
  "Not gathering racial statistics is the norm in continental Europe. It's mostly Anglo-Saxon people (us, uk) and their love for the idea of "race" that is the exception." In the UK, statistics are collected on the ethnic origin of people in order to provide insights into important issues. For example, the COVID-19 pandemic has revealed that deaths from COVID-19 are higher among black and South Asian groups. Without these statistics we might not back have identified that these communities are more vulnerable to COVID-19. Another example: statistics have identified that South Asians have a much higher incidence of diabetes. That insight means health professionals can research why the risk is higher in those communities. Statistics that capture ethnic origin can also provide insight into issues of inequality, health, employment, housing and more. In my view, capturing this data is important and helpful. Without it, insight and analysis will be incomplete.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    But is it more meaningful than many other variable that one might collect statistics of? What stands out for me in particular is that there is often talk in academic achievement and income level as a function of race, but it turns out that the far less discussed variable of the time of the year one was born in, is a bigger indicator than race. It feels as though it be a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. They think race is so important that the moment they find anything that correlates as a function of it, they chant it, whereas race is often not even the actual proximate cause, but something else that correlates with it such as, for instance, urban residence, and no such chants are made when even higher correlations are found with other variables they don't seem to care as much about.
    - esyir 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

sheefrex 6y ago

As far as I'm aware, France and to a lesser degree Germany also don't collect this information. > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/france-and-germany-urged-to-rethink-reluctance-to-gather-ethnicity-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/france-and-ger...

kebman 6y ago
AFAIK Sweden does not collect such information either. Norway does, however.

azernik 6y ago

Just off the top of my head for countries that also track ethnicity/race in government statistics: Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics), Germany (under the euphemism "migration background"), Russia, Israel, Lebanon... Ethnicity is an extremely important identity category, and if you want to manage that diversity you need information.

ginko 6y ago
>Germany (under the euphemism "migration background") That's very different from the US keeping track of race though. After a generation there's no way for the German government to tell the children from naturalized citizens from other German citizens.
- tpush 6y ago
  > That's very different from the US keeping track of race though. You'll also never see a German statistic even using the word "race" for humans beings.
  - azernik 6y ago
    The use of "race" for ethnicity is indeed a uniquely American thing; most of the countries I've mentioned use "ethnicity" or "nationality".
    - kelnos 6y ago
      It's even weirder: in the US, ethnicity is a separate official category from race that has two buckets: either "hispanic or latino" or "not hispanic or latino". Which... what?
      - notfromhere 6y ago
        The US tracks ethnicity and race separately, and tracks Hispanic origin as the main driver of population growth is Hispanic migration
      - azernik 6y ago
        US got its initial Latino population from conquering bits of Mexico; and while in the US Latinos were a separate ethnic group from Anglos, the internal "racial" divisions in Mexican society between criollos and mestizos were important enough to collect data on. (And criollos considered themselves "white" and were unlikely to mark themselves as "Hispanic" if it were presented as a separate option.) US ethnic relations are weird.
  - nxpnsv 6y ago
    not for recent stats in any case...
- azernik 6y ago
  "Migration background" is defined as by the Statistisches Bundesamt as anyone having at least one grandparent who immigrated after 1949. We're only just getting into the period where descendants of e.g. Croatian immigrants of the '50s are not classified as being of "Migration background". This is, of course, only used for statistical purposes; this information isn't tracked on an individual basis for use in any day-to-day decisions.
- parineum 6y ago
  The German government doesn't know who it's citizen's parents are?
CorrectHorseBat 6y ago
>Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics) No we don't? Those divisions are entirely decided by the place where you live and for a few things in Brussels your language proficiency/the language you choose. For the rest only (original) nationality and place of birth (and those of your parents) are taken into account for statistics.
astrobe_ 6y ago
France. No government agency can mention or ask about ethnicity - in particular, our national statistics agency, the INSEE. Private organizations can, but this is not often seen. I think its an heritage from WWII, in particular the "yellow star". France refuses to consider racial differences (and religious differences too), it seeks unity in everything, to the point that it almost drove local languages to extinction. > Ethnicity is an extremely important identity category, and if you want to manage that diversity you need information. As a french person I object to this. It's all about culture, not face features. If you want to study "communities", don't look at the face, look inside the head. And the idea that a government would "manage" ethnicity is exactly the kind of thing that repulses us.
- jeromegv 6y ago
  If France is so blind to ethnicity, would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? Access to employment, interaction with police, visibility in medias, access to politic circles etc. What you describe is the French dream but is that somewhat a reality?
  - astrobe_ 6y ago
    I am not quite sure what you are getting at. Yes, this is the french ideal (and it's not so special, really), and yes, we are not here yet wrt to discrimination, be it for race, gender or sexuality. This is what the majority of the french people vote for, but of course not all french people agree with that, unfortunately.
  - brmgb 6y ago
    > would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? You are committing the American mistake of thinking that people sharing a skin colour also share a culture. There will be a tremendous amount of cultural difference between a black Senegalese who is a first generation immigrant and someone from the Reunion whose great grand parents were already all French citizens. You don't need to collect ethnicity based statistics and start treating people differently based on the color of their skin to fight racism.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> Just off the top of my head for countries that also track ethnicity/race in government statistics: Belgium (because the Walloon/Fleming ethnic divide is so central to its politics), Germany (under the euphemism "migration background") That is the point. They don't track race; they track country of birth, as does Japan. — this is an objective standard. The U.S.A. is rather unique in that it tracks subjective, self-reported race.
- azernik 6y ago
  Russia and Israel track "ethnicity" based on, respectively, self-identification and the internal membership rules of each ethnic group.

johncoltrane 6y ago

Here is one reason: basing policies on actual facts rather than dogma.

kome 6y ago

"The refusal to gather statistics on ethno-racial diversity is unusual" Not gathering racial statistics is the norm in continental Europe. It's mostly Anglo-Saxon people (us, uk) and their love for the idea of "race" that is the exception.

vanilla-almond 6y ago
"Not gathering racial statistics is the norm in continental Europe. It's mostly Anglo-Saxon people (us, uk) and their love for the idea of "race" that is the exception." In the UK, statistics are collected on the ethnic origin of people in order to provide insights into important issues. For example, the COVID-19 pandemic has revealed that deaths from COVID-19 are higher among black and South Asian groups. Without these statistics we might not back have identified that these communities are more vulnerable to COVID-19. Another example: statistics have identified that South Asians have a much higher incidence of diabetes. That insight means health professionals can research why the risk is higher in those communities. Statistics that capture ethnic origin can also provide insight into issues of inequality, health, employment, housing and more. In my view, capturing this data is important and helpful. Without it, insight and analysis will be incomplete.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  But is it more meaningful than many other variable that one might collect statistics of? What stands out for me in particular is that there is often talk in academic achievement and income level as a function of race, but it turns out that the far less discussed variable of the time of the year one was born in, is a bigger indicator than race. It feels as though it be a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. They think race is so important that the moment they find anything that correlates as a function of it, they chant it, whereas race is often not even the actual proximate cause, but something else that correlates with it such as, for instance, urban residence, and no such chants are made when even higher correlations are found with other variables they don't seem to care as much about.
  - esyir 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]