7 ms·

As a car owning suburbanite, I can’t shake the suspicion that people who complain about lack of community, in actuality just have a lack of social skills. I kno

As a car owning suburbanite, I can’t shake the suspicion that people who complain about lack of community, in actuality just have a lack of social skills. I know all my neighbors, and talk to them on a daily basis. I know all the people who own or work in the local businesses that I frequently go to. I know many of the people who frequently go to the same coffee shops and bars that I frequently go to. I know all the people who work at the butcher, and at the fish market, and at the grocery store that I frequently go to, and always have a conversation about something with them when I go in. All of that feels a lot like community to me. Yet I have the very strong suspicion that if somebody who likes to bemoan a lack of community moved in down the road from me, they’d probably just keep on bemoaning it.

codemac 6y ago
> the butcher, and at the fish market, and at the grocery store Those are all just commerce that you commute to, though. As someone who worked in the service industry for years, 99% of the people I met at work (the "regulars", the overly chatty parents who haven't seen an adult this month, etc) I would never consider part of my community. How many conversations do you have with members of your community that you're not buying something from?
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Most of them... a majority of them would be other people who go to the same places I go. That said, most relationships in a community of people are going to be at least somewhat superficial, because nobody can maintain deep personal relationships with hundreds of people. The idea that the whole thing is just a cynical commercial racket is silly though. Building a real relationship with your community is the whole point of small local business. A lot of those relationships are genuine friendships. The owner of my local coffee shop invites my wife and I over for dinner every so often, and vice versa. I had my local butcher over a couple of weeks ago because he wanted me to teach him how to make beef rendang. Even if commerce underlies the relationship, it can still be entirely community based.
  - codemac 6y ago
    I'm not saying it's a cynical commercial racket, that would be silly. What I am saying is that you should have connections with the other people in your community at the shop, not the person hired to interact with you. The relationship with the store owner has nothing to do with whether you drive a car or not. The relationship you have with others, the other folks at the store shopping, etc are much harder in a suburban geography literally because of the lack of interactions. Drivethu's are the extreme of this. It's my hypothesis that having a relationship with your local butcher or coffee maker has little to nothing to do with your car, but the relationships you have with others merely due to their proximity to you is the beauty of community. Digital or physical.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      > What I am saying is that you should have connections with the other people in your community at the shop I don’t think this is an essential element of community at all, but as I said “ a majority of [the other community members I interact with] would be other people who go to the same places I go” > It's my hypothesis that having a relationship with your local butcher or coffee maker has little to nothing to do with your car I’d say you’re right. But I’d also say that the comment “cities are made for cars not people” is equally as insightful as the comment “footpaths are made for shoes not people”, “cycle lanes are made for bicycles not people” or “rail lines are made for trains not people”. Because at the end of the day, shoes, bicycles, cars, buses, trains... are all made for people. I would suggest that a persons perception of their local community has much more to do with how they interact with it than it does the form of transport they use. I’m also certain that there would be a large number of people who live in the same community as I do, which I find to be particularly vibrant, who spend their time not socializing with anybody, and then go home at the end of the day to take out their phone and complain about lack of community.
      - codemac 6y ago
        > “footpaths are made for shoes not people”, “cycle lanes are made for bicycles not people” or “rail lines are made for trains not people”. Only one of those literally puts a glass and metal wall between every single person, and I think it's a significant difference in how social you can realistically be, as all time spent traveling is no longer occurring within a social context, but a private one.
- refurb 6y ago
  I mean, I worked retail too and I get what you're saying. However, just because you don't have a deep, meaningful relationship with someone doesn't mean they aren't a part of your community. Hell, I've probably chatted with my mailman 3 times in the past 3 years, but we recognize each other and say hi and ask how each other are doing. Just because I wouldn't call him if I needed a kidney doesn't mean he's not a part of my (the) community.
throwaway2245 6y ago
> I know all the people who work at the butcher, and at the fish market, and at the grocery store that I frequently go to, and always have a conversation about something with them when I go in. This feels like a commercial transaction to me.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I guess it could be if you wanted it to be. But if you just wanted a coffee with no social interaction or sense of local community, you’d be better off going to a Starbucks over a local shop. Any human behaviour examined from the correct perspective can be attributed to an egoist motive.
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    I like and enjoy a good and friendly commercial transaction. I just don't consider it a real friendship, and I think this is potentially dangerous thinking. Your counterpart is being paid to form that connection with you, and you are in a specific position of power over them in that situation. It's nice, in the moment, to be given service - by someone working in a service industry (this is certainly not unique to the suburbs) - but I find it odd that you seem to describe this as a satisfying personal relationship. You will likely never see that person again, whenever they stop doing that job. Your connection and their connection is to the transaction, which includes a personal element at your behest. If you had said: and I often see them outside of work, then I would consider that slightly differently.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      But I’m not talking about having “real friendships”, I’m talking about community. A community is just a type of social unit, and people who deride a lack of community tend to be talking about the lack of that social dynamic. There is not much socialization involved with placing an order at Starbucks and waiting for my name to be called out. There is a much greater level of socialization involved when I go to my local coffee shop, where I know the staff, and we talk for a few minutes about how our lives are going before I head off again. That’s even more true when I stop and talk with some of the other regulars that I’ve gotten to know. That’s just typical community social interaction. That said, I do have “real friendships” with a number of people that I’ve meet in these settings. Because, perhaps unsurprisingly, a nice local community can be a good place to find new friends.
dismalpedigree 6y ago
I agree. I live in the suburbs. Have lived in urban and rural in the past. I like the suburbs. Plenty of green space. Plenty of privacy. Lots of interaction with neighbors and lots of families with similar aged kids to play with. All amenities are close by (but beyond where I would walk). Sure i have to drive, but its 3 minutes and its easy. To each their own on what they choose as a lifestyle. Stop hating on mine.
- mcguire 6y ago
  But your lifestyle is inefficient, NIMBY, and just wrong! /s
  - dismalpedigree 6y ago
    I suppose suburbs are not the most efficient way to live. My priority is quality of MY life, which I find is higher in the suburbs. So i am willing to not be optimized because thats not what provides value to me.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
flukus 6y ago
> I can’t shake the suspicion that people who complain about lack of community, in actuality just have a lack of social skills. Along with social skills I think it's the lack of other hobbies or interests. I have friends from local bars but I also have ones from various sports clubs and other activities. Whether it's churches, the local chess club or sports a city will provide a lot more of these niches for community. Community doesn't just happen, you have to go out and get involved in them, then you have to talk to people instead of sitting on your phone.

codemac 6y ago

> the butcher, and at the fish market, and at the grocery store Those are all just commerce that you commute to, though. As someone who worked in the service industry for years, 99% of the people I met at work (the "regulars", the overly chatty parents who haven't seen an adult this month, etc) I would never consider part of my community. How many conversations do you have with members of your community that you're not buying something from?

AmericanChopper 6y ago
Most of them... a majority of them would be other people who go to the same places I go. That said, most relationships in a community of people are going to be at least somewhat superficial, because nobody can maintain deep personal relationships with hundreds of people. The idea that the whole thing is just a cynical commercial racket is silly though. Building a real relationship with your community is the whole point of small local business. A lot of those relationships are genuine friendships. The owner of my local coffee shop invites my wife and I over for dinner every so often, and vice versa. I had my local butcher over a couple of weeks ago because he wanted me to teach him how to make beef rendang. Even if commerce underlies the relationship, it can still be entirely community based.
- codemac 6y ago
  I'm not saying it's a cynical commercial racket, that would be silly. What I am saying is that you should have connections with the other people in your community at the shop, not the person hired to interact with you. The relationship with the store owner has nothing to do with whether you drive a car or not. The relationship you have with others, the other folks at the store shopping, etc are much harder in a suburban geography literally because of the lack of interactions. Drivethu's are the extreme of this. It's my hypothesis that having a relationship with your local butcher or coffee maker has little to nothing to do with your car, but the relationships you have with others merely due to their proximity to you is the beauty of community. Digital or physical.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    > What I am saying is that you should have connections with the other people in your community at the shop I don’t think this is an essential element of community at all, but as I said “ a majority of [the other community members I interact with] would be other people who go to the same places I go” > It's my hypothesis that having a relationship with your local butcher or coffee maker has little to nothing to do with your car I’d say you’re right. But I’d also say that the comment “cities are made for cars not people” is equally as insightful as the comment “footpaths are made for shoes not people”, “cycle lanes are made for bicycles not people” or “rail lines are made for trains not people”. Because at the end of the day, shoes, bicycles, cars, buses, trains... are all made for people. I would suggest that a persons perception of their local community has much more to do with how they interact with it than it does the form of transport they use. I’m also certain that there would be a large number of people who live in the same community as I do, which I find to be particularly vibrant, who spend their time not socializing with anybody, and then go home at the end of the day to take out their phone and complain about lack of community.
    - codemac 6y ago
      > “footpaths are made for shoes not people”, “cycle lanes are made for bicycles not people” or “rail lines are made for trains not people”. Only one of those literally puts a glass and metal wall between every single person, and I think it's a significant difference in how social you can realistically be, as all time spent traveling is no longer occurring within a social context, but a private one.
refurb 6y ago
I mean, I worked retail too and I get what you're saying. However, just because you don't have a deep, meaningful relationship with someone doesn't mean they aren't a part of your community. Hell, I've probably chatted with my mailman 3 times in the past 3 years, but we recognize each other and say hi and ask how each other are doing. Just because I wouldn't call him if I needed a kidney doesn't mean he's not a part of my (the) community.

throwaway2245 6y ago

> I know all the people who work at the butcher, and at the fish market, and at the grocery store that I frequently go to, and always have a conversation about something with them when I go in. This feels like a commercial transaction to me.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
I guess it could be if you wanted it to be. But if you just wanted a coffee with no social interaction or sense of local community, you’d be better off going to a Starbucks over a local shop. Any human behaviour examined from the correct perspective can be attributed to an egoist motive.
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  I like and enjoy a good and friendly commercial transaction. I just don't consider it a real friendship, and I think this is potentially dangerous thinking. Your counterpart is being paid to form that connection with you, and you are in a specific position of power over them in that situation. It's nice, in the moment, to be given service - by someone working in a service industry (this is certainly not unique to the suburbs) - but I find it odd that you seem to describe this as a satisfying personal relationship. You will likely never see that person again, whenever they stop doing that job. Your connection and their connection is to the transaction, which includes a personal element at your behest. If you had said: and I often see them outside of work, then I would consider that slightly differently.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    But I’m not talking about having “real friendships”, I’m talking about community. A community is just a type of social unit, and people who deride a lack of community tend to be talking about the lack of that social dynamic. There is not much socialization involved with placing an order at Starbucks and waiting for my name to be called out. There is a much greater level of socialization involved when I go to my local coffee shop, where I know the staff, and we talk for a few minutes about how our lives are going before I head off again. That’s even more true when I stop and talk with some of the other regulars that I’ve gotten to know. That’s just typical community social interaction. That said, I do have “real friendships” with a number of people that I’ve meet in these settings. Because, perhaps unsurprisingly, a nice local community can be a good place to find new friends.

dismalpedigree 6y ago

I agree. I live in the suburbs. Have lived in urban and rural in the past. I like the suburbs. Plenty of green space. Plenty of privacy. Lots of interaction with neighbors and lots of families with similar aged kids to play with. All amenities are close by (but beyond where I would walk). Sure i have to drive, but its 3 minutes and its easy. To each their own on what they choose as a lifestyle. Stop hating on mine.

mcguire 6y ago
But your lifestyle is inefficient, NIMBY, and just wrong! /s
- dismalpedigree 6y ago
  I suppose suburbs are not the most efficient way to live. My priority is quality of MY life, which I find is higher in the suburbs. So i am willing to not be optimized because thats not what provides value to me.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

flukus 6y ago

> I can’t shake the suspicion that people who complain about lack of community, in actuality just have a lack of social skills. Along with social skills I think it's the lack of other hobbies or interests. I have friends from local bars but I also have ones from various sports clubs and other activities. Whether it's churches, the local chess club or sports a city will provide a lot more of these niches for community. Community doesn't just happen, you have to go out and get involved in them, then you have to talk to people instead of sitting on your phone.