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I went to a German university and fortunately most universities here still believe that their job is to enable learning and that university is as much about lea

by ascar 6y ago

I went to a German university and fortunately most universities here still believe that their job is to enable learning and that university is as much about learning to learn and learning to live than it is about the content. In contrast to school this means the motivation has to come from the students and there is no mandatory attendance. I for one was glad that I didn't have to sit in lectures that I can learn in less than half the time on my own. That I could structure my learning the way it best fits me. This however requires that materials are available in sufficient quality remotely. Not attending class doesn't mean you have no human interaction, there are tons of other options for human interaction like sport clubs. Your comment reads like attending in person is the only right way, while I think accepting individualism and providing choice is much better. So if after covid there is the option to work/study in person or from home, whatever fits the individual that day, that would be awesome.

pantalaimon 6y ago
> Not attending class doesn't mean you have no human interaction Well currently that's the case either way > there are tons of other options for human interaction like sport clubs. Yea but you won't meet people there who are into the same field of study as you are. At Uni you get to meet people who have chosen the same path as you have, often people very much alike you. You are working together on tasks, explain the materials to each other and have lunch together. You just don't have all that remotely. Also students usually live in a single room apparent, so it gets really hard to separate study and private live. I find it much harder to stay focused on a video lecture than on a live one inside a lecture hall. You could also go to the library to learn or work on a project if you want to avoid distractions, this is also not currently possible.
- the-smug-one 6y ago
  You can separate the socialising and the educational parts of the university experience. For a large majority of courses I simply did not attend to lectures, it's a lot faster to learn on your own. Yet, I could have gone to the social nights that the CS chapter held every week and mingled if I wanted to. But yes, the lack of separation of studying and private living in a one room apartment sucked during Covid. Of course, in a regular school year I could just take the subway to my uni or uni library to work there. The bad parts of the remote experience will go away.
  - dan-robertson 6y ago
    I think I strongly disagree. For one thing if you view the university as trying to train people towards being researchers (or even employment) then collaboration and socialisation matter a lot. For the actual learning I think socialisation with one’s peers (a prerequisite to having good discussions about the subject with them) is crucial because it is the fastest way to get feedback. It also can provide inspiration for alternative approaches, motivation, or a tip to get unstuck. A book, lecture or grade can’t do any of those things. Office hours or other expert feedback from teachers may help somewhat but it’s different from the kind of camaraderie one will develop with fellow students.
- spion 6y ago
  GP is right, you don't necessarily need any of that for effective studying. Its very possible to set up the remote equivalents for students learning together (e.g. discord) if this is done well. Its much harder to establish the social connection, that part is true.
- frays 6y ago
  A lot of what you have said is opinion-based and subjective. > Also students usually live in a single room apparent, so it gets really hard to separate study and private live. I lived in a single room apartment and found it quite easy to separate study and private life. It was just about self-control and not invite your girlfriend up to your apartment when you're trying to study for exams. > I find it much harder to stay focused on a video lecture than on a live one inside a lecture hall. Not for me. It was much easier to focus at home without the guy next to you constantly shifting in his seat. Plus able to pause the video and rewatch the parts that you didn't understand the first time.
wongarsu 6y ago
In German university I did choose which lectures were worth attending in person (generally those where the professor was more insightful or entertaining than his slides or book alone), but generally attending the lectures wasn't the point. The lectures are the excuse to get people in the same building, get them to occasionally sit close to each other, give them topics to talk about and incentive to do so (when you've spent three hours on your weekly exercise that you have to turn in tomorrow and need help). It's also so much easier socializing if everyone has a valid excuse to drive there anyways; you might as well stay a bit longer avid talk
dan-robertson 6y ago
I feel like you’re disagreeing with a pointlessly weak version of the comment you’re replying to. It seems a bit like you are describing university as something only about learning and ignoring the social aspects of it. I strongly disagree. Firstly let me say that what you have written implies that university merely puts you through some lectures (and maybe some exams and gives you a bit of paper at the end), and you complain that you could learn things better yourself. It would be cynical to think that university is just a book but worse yet necessary for the credential and I will assume that this is not what you think. As universities are different, let me say what teaching mine provided to frame what I will write below. We began with everyone taking the same courses and over later years there was more choice. Teaching was done with lectures, occasional small group workshops, homework, and 1-on-2 sessions going over that homework. Attendance to lectures (or other teaching) was not required although it was encouraged and assessment was done in exams which included questions from all courses so one didn’t need to commit to certain courses in particular. While self study was important I think the two key things provided by the university were the small group teachings which gave expert feedback, and discussion with one’s peers which provided non-expert feedback, good sources of inspiration and ideas for things to try, and discussions to build a better understanding. I think this aspect would be hardest to replicate remotely. The other social aspect was also important: unlike school, you’re no longer surrounded by people who don’t really want to be there and it is an environment where people are particularly similar without all having the same goal. If you go to a sports club, social interactions will be mostly dominated by the interest in the sport. I don’t think it’s a good substitute for socialising with students of other subjects at university. The least important social aspect was going to lectures although I think it provides a more informal setting than a book to see how the sausage is made (or rather to watch it being made on the blackboard in front of you.)
- ascar 6y ago
  > I feel like you’re disagreeing with a pointlessly weak version of the comment you’re replying to. No, I'm disagreeing witht the one-sidedness of the GPs comment. I don't disagree that the socialising aspect of university is good for *some* (or to some degree even for everyone). I do disagree that it's something that fits *everyone at all times*. That is why I finished my comment with the outlook that every student has the option to choose what is best for him/her. Reality is, especially before covid, that remote learning and self-studying had avoidable disadvantages, because it wasn't a first class citizen and I really hope it remains a first class citizen, while in-person studying is still available for everyone who likes to use it. > It would be cynical to think that university is just a book I don't think you learn how to learn or how to live from reading a book. I do however think you do that throughout university. You have a certain curriculum, you have certain goals that you chose willingly and you have to figure yourself out how to learn them, but also how to motivate yourself and often also how to go through life without your parents. It's this unstructuredness and self-governance that I really appreciate about university. Once you start working, your life is much more structured and externally motivated than during university. > unlike school, you’re no longer surrounded by people who don’t really want to be there and it is an environment where people are particularly similar without all having the same goal. In computer science undergrad I experienced that a lot of my peers were not actually intereted in the engineering, in the building part of things, but that they chose the field because of the career outlook and the money. It wasn't particular interesting to work with them and like another commenter said I also did feel they slowed me down. After the first years I tried my best to choose peers that were interested in the engineering for all group work. Things aren't black and white. That's also why I said having the opportunity to choose on any given day is great. I'm not arguing against in-person class and socialising. I'm arguing for choice! For opportunities! If someone thinks 2 in-person days at university are enough, in an ideal world he should have the option to self-study remotely the remaining three days and not be forced to be at campus just because some think it's best for him. Figuring out how you work best youself as an individual is an integral part of the experience and if you aren't given enough choice, independence, freedom, you can't really figure that out. Finally, because of the flexibility my university provided, I was able to work up to 2 full days (legally up to 20 hours, in reality I did like 14-16) per week. Not in some unrelated job, but as a junior/student software engineer building and shipping production products together with senior engineers. So, I could also socialize and learn from more senior peers, while earning some additional money. This was, at least at my university, rather common among the software engineering focused students and in addition to a possible summer internship. This might also not be right for everyone, but it just shows there are a lot of different paths that all can be successful and it highly depends on the individual. Arguing in-person university is best for everyone and that the socialising is indispensable for everyone is missing the point.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pelasaco 6y ago
I think some people are assuming here that everyone in the university are in the same age and life moment? I went to the university in Germany too and I had some colleagues with kids already and others way over their 30s, that they loved when they could just learn remotely.
bartread 6y ago
> Not attending class doesn't mean you have no human interaction, there are tons of other options for human interaction like sport clubs. Sure, but the key is like-minded individuals, and it's fun (at least for many people) to be thrown together with hundreds or thousands of other people who are at the same life stage as you. Sports clubs, and many similar clubs and societies, amongst university students only really work when those students are substantially located in roughly the same geographical location. You're conflating being in a lecture hall with attending university. Being in lectures is a small part of the whole experience. Much of the rest of that experience relies heavily on being mostly colocated for the academic year. A really small example: Cambridge University will not be able to continue fielding a top quality rowing squad unless the squad members are all able to train together as a team. It will not be able to recruit new members to its rowing teams to build that top quality squad unless it can bring all those people together. On the teaching front it's pretty difficult to do a substantial proportion of, e.g., practical physics, chemistry, and biology labs from home or your hall of residence. It's also going to be impossible to meaningfully participate in practical engineering labs, or many of the activities that medical students need to do in order to qualify as doctors. Even the more practical aspects of the arts and music present serious challenges, and nobody can make me believe that a remote experience in these disciplines will be anything more than second rate. For some people I'm sure it's fine (Open University and its associated remote learning have after all been available in the UK for decades) but for most people remote university is going to be an extremely impoverished experience. If I were university age now I'd seriously consider deferring until the pandemic is in the past.

by ascar 6y ago

pantalaimon 6y ago

> Not attending class doesn't mean you have no human interaction Well currently that's the case either way > there are tons of other options for human interaction like sport clubs. Yea but you won't meet people there who are into the same field of study as you are. At Uni you get to meet people who have chosen the same path as you have, often people very much alike you. You are working together on tasks, explain the materials to each other and have lunch together. You just don't have all that remotely. Also students usually live in a single room apparent, so it gets really hard to separate study and private live. I find it much harder to stay focused on a video lecture than on a live one inside a lecture hall. You could also go to the library to learn or work on a project if you want to avoid distractions, this is also not currently possible.

the-smug-one 6y ago
You can separate the socialising and the educational parts of the university experience. For a large majority of courses I simply did not attend to lectures, it's a lot faster to learn on your own. Yet, I could have gone to the social nights that the CS chapter held every week and mingled if I wanted to. But yes, the lack of separation of studying and private living in a one room apartment sucked during Covid. Of course, in a regular school year I could just take the subway to my uni or uni library to work there. The bad parts of the remote experience will go away.
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I think I strongly disagree. For one thing if you view the university as trying to train people towards being researchers (or even employment) then collaboration and socialisation matter a lot. For the actual learning I think socialisation with one’s peers (a prerequisite to having good discussions about the subject with them) is crucial because it is the fastest way to get feedback. It also can provide inspiration for alternative approaches, motivation, or a tip to get unstuck. A book, lecture or grade can’t do any of those things. Office hours or other expert feedback from teachers may help somewhat but it’s different from the kind of camaraderie one will develop with fellow students.
spion 6y ago
GP is right, you don't necessarily need any of that for effective studying. Its very possible to set up the remote equivalents for students learning together (e.g. discord) if this is done well. Its much harder to establish the social connection, that part is true.
frays 6y ago
A lot of what you have said is opinion-based and subjective. > Also students usually live in a single room apparent, so it gets really hard to separate study and private live. I lived in a single room apartment and found it quite easy to separate study and private life. It was just about self-control and not invite your girlfriend up to your apartment when you're trying to study for exams. > I find it much harder to stay focused on a video lecture than on a live one inside a lecture hall. Not for me. It was much easier to focus at home without the guy next to you constantly shifting in his seat. Plus able to pause the video and rewatch the parts that you didn't understand the first time.

wongarsu 6y ago

In German university I did choose which lectures were worth attending in person (generally those where the professor was more insightful or entertaining than his slides or book alone), but generally attending the lectures wasn't the point. The lectures are the excuse to get people in the same building, get them to occasionally sit close to each other, give them topics to talk about and incentive to do so (when you've spent three hours on your weekly exercise that you have to turn in tomorrow and need help). It's also so much easier socializing if everyone has a valid excuse to drive there anyways; you might as well stay a bit longer avid talk

dan-robertson 6y ago

I feel like you’re disagreeing with a pointlessly weak version of the comment you’re replying to. It seems a bit like you are describing university as something only about learning and ignoring the social aspects of it. I strongly disagree. Firstly let me say that what you have written implies that university merely puts you through some lectures (and maybe some exams and gives you a bit of paper at the end), and you complain that you could learn things better yourself. It would be cynical to think that university is just a book but worse yet necessary for the credential and I will assume that this is not what you think. As universities are different, let me say what teaching mine provided to frame what I will write below. We began with everyone taking the same courses and over later years there was more choice. Teaching was done with lectures, occasional small group workshops, homework, and 1-on-2 sessions going over that homework. Attendance to lectures (or other teaching) was not required although it was encouraged and assessment was done in exams which included questions from all courses so one didn’t need to commit to certain courses in particular. While self study was important I think the two key things provided by the university were the small group teachings which gave expert feedback, and discussion with one’s peers which provided non-expert feedback, good sources of inspiration and ideas for things to try, and discussions to build a better understanding. I think this aspect would be hardest to replicate remotely. The other social aspect was also important: unlike school, you’re no longer surrounded by people who don’t really want to be there and it is an environment where people are particularly similar without all having the same goal. If you go to a sports club, social interactions will be mostly dominated by the interest in the sport. I don’t think it’s a good substitute for socialising with students of other subjects at university. The least important social aspect was going to lectures although I think it provides a more informal setting than a book to see how the sausage is made (or rather to watch it being made on the blackboard in front of you.)

ascar 6y ago
> I feel like you’re disagreeing with a pointlessly weak version of the comment you’re replying to. No, I'm disagreeing witht the one-sidedness of the GPs comment. I don't disagree that the socialising aspect of university is good for *some* (or to some degree even for everyone). I do disagree that it's something that fits *everyone at all times*. That is why I finished my comment with the outlook that every student has the option to choose what is best for him/her. Reality is, especially before covid, that remote learning and self-studying had avoidable disadvantages, because it wasn't a first class citizen and I really hope it remains a first class citizen, while in-person studying is still available for everyone who likes to use it. > It would be cynical to think that university is just a book I don't think you learn how to learn or how to live from reading a book. I do however think you do that throughout university. You have a certain curriculum, you have certain goals that you chose willingly and you have to figure yourself out how to learn them, but also how to motivate yourself and often also how to go through life without your parents. It's this unstructuredness and self-governance that I really appreciate about university. Once you start working, your life is much more structured and externally motivated than during university. > unlike school, you’re no longer surrounded by people who don’t really want to be there and it is an environment where people are particularly similar without all having the same goal. In computer science undergrad I experienced that a lot of my peers were not actually intereted in the engineering, in the building part of things, but that they chose the field because of the career outlook and the money. It wasn't particular interesting to work with them and like another commenter said I also did feel they slowed me down. After the first years I tried my best to choose peers that were interested in the engineering for all group work. Things aren't black and white. That's also why I said having the opportunity to choose on any given day is great. I'm not arguing against in-person class and socialising. I'm arguing for choice! For opportunities! If someone thinks 2 in-person days at university are enough, in an ideal world he should have the option to self-study remotely the remaining three days and not be forced to be at campus just because some think it's best for him. Figuring out how you work best youself as an individual is an integral part of the experience and if you aren't given enough choice, independence, freedom, you can't really figure that out. Finally, because of the flexibility my university provided, I was able to work up to 2 full days (legally up to 20 hours, in reality I did like 14-16) per week. Not in some unrelated job, but as a junior/student software engineer building and shipping production products together with senior engineers. So, I could also socialize and learn from more senior peers, while earning some additional money. This was, at least at my university, rather common among the software engineering focused students and in addition to a possible summer internship. This might also not be right for everyone, but it just shows there are a lot of different paths that all can be successful and it highly depends on the individual. Arguing in-person university is best for everyone and that the socialising is indispensable for everyone is missing the point.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pelasaco 6y ago

I think some people are assuming here that everyone in the university are in the same age and life moment? I went to the university in Germany too and I had some colleagues with kids already and others way over their 30s, that they loved when they could just learn remotely.

bartread 6y ago

> Not attending class doesn't mean you have no human interaction, there are tons of other options for human interaction like sport clubs. Sure, but the key is like-minded individuals, and it's fun (at least for many people) to be thrown together with hundreds or thousands of other people who are at the same life stage as you. Sports clubs, and many similar clubs and societies, amongst university students only really work when those students are substantially located in roughly the same geographical location. You're conflating being in a lecture hall with attending university. Being in lectures is a small part of the whole experience. Much of the rest of that experience relies heavily on being mostly colocated for the academic year. A really small example: Cambridge University will not be able to continue fielding a top quality rowing squad unless the squad members are all able to train together as a team. It will not be able to recruit new members to its rowing teams to build that top quality squad unless it can bring all those people together. On the teaching front it's pretty difficult to do a substantial proportion of, e.g., practical physics, chemistry, and biology labs from home or your hall of residence. It's also going to be impossible to meaningfully participate in practical engineering labs, or many of the activities that medical students need to do in order to qualify as doctors. Even the more practical aspects of the arts and music present serious challenges, and nobody can make me believe that a remote experience in these disciplines will be anything more than second rate. For some people I'm sure it's fine (Open University and its associated remote learning have after all been available in the UK for decades) but for most people remote university is going to be an extremely impoverished experience. If I were university age now I'd seriously consider deferring until the pandemic is in the past.