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There are a billion blog posts about the python core developers acknowledging their mistakes and saying they would handle future changes much differently. This

by rtpg 6y ago

There are a billion blog posts about the python core developers acknowledging their mistakes and saying they would handle future changes much differently. This post might be true, but it's roughly 10 years late in terms of hitting the intended audience. Everyone gets this now, and "beating a dead horse" might be an understatement

jacquesm 6y ago
It's in response to something happening today. Some dead horses need a serious beating every now and then to remind people that they can resurrect if you're not careful. All of the lessons the python team did not put into practice were well known at the time, but they knew better and here we are. The day after tomorrow someone will make breaking changes to some API, framework, language or OS who still needs to learn this lesson, maybe we'll get to them in time.
- vflagger 6y ago
  The lessons have not arrived at the current Python cabal. They just deprecated unittest and are seriously considering to break parts of the C-API again. For the people who work in the correct companies this will generate many billable hours for no gain. For others it will be a lot of unpaid work again. At this stage Python should be forked.
  - orf 6y ago
    Where has unittest been deprecated?
    - hwmartins 6y ago
      Probably a mixup with distutils, which has just been deprecated.
  - carapace 6y ago
    > At this stage Python should be forked. I seriously (I mean seriously) thought about forking Py2 (Tauthon is great BTW) but then I found out that PyPy has a Python2 mode and will for the foreseeable future. Just to be clear: PyPy runs Python 2 code, and always will. (As far as I know. Although it occurs to me that I have no idea what it's like if you're trying to work with the C API.) (Also I got into Prolog, but that's another story.)
  - musicale 6y ago
    > Python should be forked It is pretty much forked.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Apparently not everyone gets it, seeing that many are arguing against it, and every time this subject lands there are many ignorant users that say “Just upgrade your code.” as if that be free.
- rtpg 6y ago
  Python 2.7 still works as a binary. You can vendor all your requirements. The rug is not being pulled out from anyone, we’re looking at 10+ years of this. pypi is a mostly volunteer-only endeavor, so it’s tough to support stuff forever. And even there older pips still will work! Python 2 still works! It’s still there! Nobody is taking it away from you in any real sense. But Python developers don’t want to continue developing in that environment so are choosing to not handle it for future stuff. Python 2 works. You can use it forever if you want. Nobody is forcing you to upgrade... except if you want the free labor from the community. And you have had years and years and years.
hitekker 6y ago
Uh, have they acknowledged their mistakes? One or two of them are in this comment section right now, denying culpability and fanning flamewars. Not quite the behavior of the repentant.

by rtpg 6y ago

jacquesm 6y ago

It's in response to something happening today. Some dead horses need a serious beating every now and then to remind people that they can resurrect if you're not careful. All of the lessons the python team did not put into practice were well known at the time, but they knew better and here we are. The day after tomorrow someone will make breaking changes to some API, framework, language or OS who still needs to learn this lesson, maybe we'll get to them in time.

vflagger 6y ago
The lessons have not arrived at the current Python cabal. They just deprecated unittest and are seriously considering to break parts of the C-API again. For the people who work in the correct companies this will generate many billable hours for no gain. For others it will be a lot of unpaid work again. At this stage Python should be forked.
- orf 6y ago
  Where has unittest been deprecated?
  - hwmartins 6y ago
    Probably a mixup with distutils, which has just been deprecated.
- carapace 6y ago
  > At this stage Python should be forked. I seriously (I mean seriously) thought about forking Py2 (Tauthon is great BTW) but then I found out that PyPy has a Python2 mode and will for the foreseeable future. Just to be clear: PyPy runs Python 2 code, and always will. (As far as I know. Although it occurs to me that I have no idea what it's like if you're trying to work with the C API.) (Also I got into Prolog, but that's another story.)
- musicale 6y ago
  > Python should be forked It is pretty much forked.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

Apparently not everyone gets it, seeing that many are arguing against it, and every time this subject lands there are many ignorant users that say “Just upgrade your code.” as if that be free.

rtpg 6y ago
Python 2.7 still works as a binary. You can vendor all your requirements. The rug is not being pulled out from anyone, we’re looking at 10+ years of this. pypi is a mostly volunteer-only endeavor, so it’s tough to support stuff forever. And even there older pips still will work! Python 2 still works! It’s still there! Nobody is taking it away from you in any real sense. But Python developers don’t want to continue developing in that environment so are choosing to not handle it for future stuff. Python 2 works. You can use it forever if you want. Nobody is forcing you to upgrade... except if you want the free labor from the community. And you have had years and years and years.

hitekker 6y ago

Uh, have they acknowledged their mistakes? One or two of them are in this comment section right now, denying culpability and fanning flamewars. Not quite the behavior of the repentant.