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In theory, no difference. In practice, good standups to me always feel like a casual conversation, and bad standups always feel like people speaking off a scrip

In theory, no difference. In practice, good standups to me always feel like a casual conversation, and bad standups always feel like people speaking off a script like bad actors.

dragontamer 6y ago
> In theory, no difference. In practice, good standups to me always feel like a casual conversation, and bad standups always feel like people speaking off a script like bad actors. As someone who did sales early in my career... acting off of a script correctly feels like a casual conversation to the one you're selling to. If your script-reading is bad, that's because you haven't practiced enough. Having a script isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is in fact very useful in keeping focus.
- emteycz 6y ago
  Programmers are not salesmen, and this is not in their control, the scrum master often demands a question/answer type of conversation.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    The more I grow into senior engineer / more leadership positions, the more and more my sales training from my youth comes in handy. Every meeting you have with people has a goal (otherwise, you wouldn't meet with them to begin with!!). Maybe the goal is to gather requirements, or maybe the goal is to convince them to do something for you. The latter is 100% sales. None of us exist within a vacuum, we rely upon APIs or libraries or frameworks to do things. And if these APIs / libraries / frameworks are company / organization specific, you'll need to convince their lead engineer that your change is worthwhile to adapt.
hordeallergy 6y ago
Why not just have casual conversations instead? Standups are one those things that people disagree on endlessly without discussing context - their worth depends on the team. On my current team they're worthless. I'd rather have casual conversation, but that's like squeezing blood from a stone. Departure planning underway.
- kenhwang 6y ago
  Some people just don't like casual conversation and wouldn't initiate conversation on their own. If you have enough of those types, no communication wold happen. Ad-hoc conversation tends to be interruptive which is not desirable for people on maker schedules. Either way, standups is just one communication strategy. Pick the communication strategy that works with the style your team feels comfortable with. There's rarely one solution fits all when it comes to communication.
- projectileboy 6y ago
  It’s a good question that every team should ask themselves rather than just blindly follow some scrum book. One reason that standups can be worthwhile is if your product managers are hard to get a hold of (which is common), it’s a guaranteed time when you can ask them some questions. But your mileage may vary.
- ozim 6y ago
  It should be, but not everyone on the team has to be confident. Not everyone has to be outspoken, not everyone has to have perfect pronunciation. Not everyone is able to structure their thoughts in 1 minute, even though they are able to work on complex systems. What you want from "what you did yesterday, blockers, what you will do today" script is a framework for conversation starter, conversation scope and having something that you can prepare before. Some people can come up with it on the spot and some people think they should come up with it on the spot. That is why I hate having standup right at the start of the day like 9.00, I usually have to get at least 20 mins to get check up what I finished yesterday and start picking up something new, going through priorities.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    Personally I'd like a stand-up where it's ok not to have anything to say, like yeah, WIP, no problems, no blockers (except being here talking about it instead of doing it..!) etc. Fully agree I would prefer it later. Not just 20min, I typically start ~1h before ours anyway, but it hangs over me all that time. I'd like to spend most of the day working on something and then stand-up in the afternoon, I'd be more likely to have an issue someone could help me with, or otherwise on my mind to discuss.
zygy 6y ago
If one had to troubleshoot a bad standup meeting, how might you turn one that feels more scripted into one that feels more natural?
- corty 6y ago
  Everyone is standing up, sitting down only as a medical exception. Strict time limits. Everyone gets 30s, extension only of there is a question from the crowd. For the topics "yesterday, blockers, today" just make it 3 "words" for yesterday and today each. Like "yesterday customer contact and small bugs, today think about customer suggestions, maybe with Christine" at most. Only the blockers deserve a full sentence maybe.

In theory, no difference. In practice, good standups to me always feel like a casual conversation, and bad standups always feel like people speaking off a script like bad actors.

dragontamer 6y ago

> In theory, no difference. In practice, good standups to me always feel like a casual conversation, and bad standups always feel like people speaking off a script like bad actors. As someone who did sales early in my career... acting off of a script correctly feels like a casual conversation to the one you're selling to. If your script-reading is bad, that's because you haven't practiced enough. Having a script isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is in fact very useful in keeping focus.

emteycz 6y ago
Programmers are not salesmen, and this is not in their control, the scrum master often demands a question/answer type of conversation.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  The more I grow into senior engineer / more leadership positions, the more and more my sales training from my youth comes in handy. Every meeting you have with people has a goal (otherwise, you wouldn't meet with them to begin with!!). Maybe the goal is to gather requirements, or maybe the goal is to convince them to do something for you. The latter is 100% sales. None of us exist within a vacuum, we rely upon APIs or libraries or frameworks to do things. And if these APIs / libraries / frameworks are company / organization specific, you'll need to convince their lead engineer that your change is worthwhile to adapt.

hordeallergy 6y ago

Why not just have casual conversations instead? Standups are one those things that people disagree on endlessly without discussing context - their worth depends on the team. On my current team they're worthless. I'd rather have casual conversation, but that's like squeezing blood from a stone. Departure planning underway.

kenhwang 6y ago
Some people just don't like casual conversation and wouldn't initiate conversation on their own. If you have enough of those types, no communication wold happen. Ad-hoc conversation tends to be interruptive which is not desirable for people on maker schedules. Either way, standups is just one communication strategy. Pick the communication strategy that works with the style your team feels comfortable with. There's rarely one solution fits all when it comes to communication.
projectileboy 6y ago
It’s a good question that every team should ask themselves rather than just blindly follow some scrum book. One reason that standups can be worthwhile is if your product managers are hard to get a hold of (which is common), it’s a guaranteed time when you can ask them some questions. But your mileage may vary.
ozim 6y ago
It should be, but not everyone on the team has to be confident. Not everyone has to be outspoken, not everyone has to have perfect pronunciation. Not everyone is able to structure their thoughts in 1 minute, even though they are able to work on complex systems. What you want from "what you did yesterday, blockers, what you will do today" script is a framework for conversation starter, conversation scope and having something that you can prepare before. Some people can come up with it on the spot and some people think they should come up with it on the spot. That is why I hate having standup right at the start of the day like 9.00, I usually have to get at least 20 mins to get check up what I finished yesterday and start picking up something new, going through priorities.
- OJFord 6y ago
  Personally I'd like a stand-up where it's ok not to have anything to say, like yeah, WIP, no problems, no blockers (except being here talking about it instead of doing it..!) etc. Fully agree I would prefer it later. Not just 20min, I typically start ~1h before ours anyway, but it hangs over me all that time. I'd like to spend most of the day working on something and then stand-up in the afternoon, I'd be more likely to have an issue someone could help me with, or otherwise on my mind to discuss.

zygy 6y ago

If one had to troubleshoot a bad standup meeting, how might you turn one that feels more scripted into one that feels more natural?

corty 6y ago
Everyone is standing up, sitting down only as a medical exception. Strict time limits. Everyone gets 30s, extension only of there is a question from the crowd. For the topics "yesterday, blockers, today" just make it 3 "words" for yesterday and today each. Like "yesterday customer contact and small bugs, today think about customer suggestions, maybe with Christine" at most. Only the blockers deserve a full sentence maybe.