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It's funny to watch this chain because it appears you truly cannot comprehend what he is saying. If you have a shoe store in Azerbaijan and one month you have

by anm89 6y ago

It's funny to watch this chain because it appears you truly cannot comprehend what he is saying. If you have a shoe store in Azerbaijan and one month you have a bank that allows you to accept payments, and then the next month your accounts are frozen, and then the next month it costs 60% to accept payments, your business has been stripped out from under you because you don't have reliable banking infrastructure. But when all you've ever known is reliable infrastructure and a bank which reliably holds your money its easy to lose this point. The bitcoin block chain is never going to freeze your funds. The bitcoin block chain has changing transaction costs but they not susceptible to wild swings in cost by administrative decree. These points sound attractive when you don't have access to good banking infrastructure. None of these things have anything to do with crime of any sort.

arcticbull 6y ago
Sure but in those countries, is a $10 transaction fee an acceptable trade-off? It probably isn't. That's the thing. The fee is only palatable in countries that have banking infrastructure, and in ones that don't it's beyond extortionate. Like, monthly salary extortionate. Certainly when you factor in the $80 of electricity per transaction that's currently being socialized across block reward. 7tx/sec is enough for an average Costco or a big flea market, not a country. And once you move to Layer 2, the guarantees you're pointing at no longer apply as an exchange can shut you off just as an unreliable bank can - and you can just as easily set up a bank as set up an exchange. If this is about providing banking infrastructure to countries that don't have it, the fees are not acceptable, and so Bitcoin is not a solution. If this is about evading taxes when running a business, I suspect having your business shut down is still in the cards.
- anm89 6y ago
  This seems pretty naive to me. Depends on what they are selling. Is it a stick of bubble gum? Ok probably not bitcoin. Is it a house? Yeah, I think theyll manage the fee. Is it somewhere in the middle?im confident theyll figure it out case by case and distribute costs as necessary and possible. Still none of this has anything to do with crime and everything to do with serving the underbanked.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Ok but banking infrastructure should support both use cases should it not? You’re not banking the underbanked who by definition don’t have money if you’re saddling them with $10 tx fees. If they had money they wouldn’t be under banked would they? I’ve spent a lot of time exploring this “underbanked” area, and in my opinion it doesn’t really exist. The issue isn’t that they don’t have access to banking it’s that they don’t have any money to put into the account. That's a social issue not an infrastructure issue.
- hcurtiss 6y ago
  There are cheaper alternatives, though. Monero, for instance, which also has the advantage of increased anonymity, which can be important in those countries without banking infrastructure. https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Are they only cheaper because nobody uses them? For example, BCH?

by anm89 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

Sure but in those countries, is a $10 transaction fee an acceptable trade-off? It probably isn't. That's the thing. The fee is only palatable in countries that have banking infrastructure, and in ones that don't it's beyond extortionate. Like, monthly salary extortionate. Certainly when you factor in the $80 of electricity per transaction that's currently being socialized across block reward. 7tx/sec is enough for an average Costco or a big flea market, not a country. And once you move to Layer 2, the guarantees you're pointing at no longer apply as an exchange can shut you off just as an unreliable bank can - and you can just as easily set up a bank as set up an exchange. If this is about providing banking infrastructure to countries that don't have it, the fees are not acceptable, and so Bitcoin is not a solution. If this is about evading taxes when running a business, I suspect having your business shut down is still in the cards.

anm89 6y ago
This seems pretty naive to me. Depends on what they are selling. Is it a stick of bubble gum? Ok probably not bitcoin. Is it a house? Yeah, I think theyll manage the fee. Is it somewhere in the middle?im confident theyll figure it out case by case and distribute costs as necessary and possible. Still none of this has anything to do with crime and everything to do with serving the underbanked.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Ok but banking infrastructure should support both use cases should it not? You’re not banking the underbanked who by definition don’t have money if you’re saddling them with $10 tx fees. If they had money they wouldn’t be under banked would they? I’ve spent a lot of time exploring this “underbanked” area, and in my opinion it doesn’t really exist. The issue isn’t that they don’t have access to banking it’s that they don’t have any money to put into the account. That's a social issue not an infrastructure issue.
hcurtiss 6y ago
There are cheaper alternatives, though. Monero, for instance, which also has the advantage of increased anonymity, which can be important in those countries without banking infrastructure. https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees https://www.monero.how/monero-transaction-fees
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Are they only cheaper because nobody uses them? For example, BCH?