3 ms·

No, there's an implicit assumption that you need to do maintainance on software you run. People who don't budget for it are just denying reality. There's 0 dif

by xxpor 6y ago

No, there's an implicit assumption that you need to do maintainance on software you run. People who don't budget for it are just denying reality. There's 0 difference between the states that were putting a call out for COBOL programmers to deal with their disaster of an unemployment system and the professor running some python script from 2003. Their lack of responsible ownership is their own fault.

dwheeler 6y ago
It's true that you need to budget for maintenance. It is a serious societal problem that maintenance is underfunded. But that means that any language revision needs to work hard at making the transition easy and incremental. 2to3 was and is laughable; at no point was it a reasonable solution. It's okay to say "we need maintenance money". But no one has an unlimited budget. People complain about the 2->3 transition because (1) it was extraordinarily steep, (2) was not justified, (3) its huge costs are repeatedly denied.
coliveira 6y ago
Your comparison couldn't be worse. COBOL is having problems not because of the language, but because of the code created 50 years ago. For all its disadvantages, COBOL is in fact one of the most successful languages of all time because it has allowed businesses to run their software for the last 50 years. That's why it won't go away, even though no one in their sane mind would create even a new line of software in COBOL. Python decided instead that their customers were of no value, and all the millions of lines of existing Python shouldn't continue to run, even though it would be trivial for them to continue supporting 2.x syntax along with 3.x. I think it is one of the most insane decisions ever made by a mainstream programming language.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Fortran and C are about the same age as COBOL, just saying.
  - yesenadam 6y ago
    Fortran 1957, COBOL 1959, C 1972.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      About != the same So a systems programming language, 13 years younger than COBOL, or 10 years, given that the work in C started in 1969. http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/chist.html http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/chist.html > C came into being in the years 1969-1973, in parallel with the early development of the Unix operating system; the most creative period occurred during 1972. Another spate of changes peaked between 1977 and 1979 But lets make you a favour and consider 1972, it makes C a 48 years old systems programming language, only surpassed by NEWP (1961) as oldest systems programming language still in use in 2021. Maybe it is about time to start talking about C the same way people talk about COBOL.
      - yesenadam 6y ago
        Your comment doesn't feel like it's doing me any favours. It makes me feel like not commenting on HN any more. My last interaction, which felt similar, and put me off commenting for a while, was with someone who claimed that "most concert pianists and serious competitors have absolutely gigantic hands" then moved the goalposts around so they could be Right. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25174394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25174394 I guess I should just let vague claims lie. But, well, when something sounds wrong, it sounds wrong.
        pjmlp 6y ago
        I consider 10 years difference to fit into "about the same age". And could fit a dictionary definition on the comment to prove my point, but then we would really be moving goal posts by then.
- wongarsu 6y ago
  There are still new Cobol versions being released (I think the current standard is Cobol 2018), along with new tooling, presumably because it's used by companies that care about maintenance even if they are unwilling/unable to switch to a more popular language. Compare that with Python 2 where you hear about lots of companies complaining about end-of-life issues or missing migration tools, yet somehow none of them seem willing to do anything about it.

by xxpor 6y ago

dwheeler 6y ago

It's true that you need to budget for maintenance. It is a serious societal problem that maintenance is underfunded. But that means that any language revision needs to work hard at making the transition easy and incremental. 2to3 was and is laughable; at no point was it a reasonable solution. It's okay to say "we need maintenance money". But no one has an unlimited budget. People complain about the 2->3 transition because (1) it was extraordinarily steep, (2) was not justified, (3) its huge costs are repeatedly denied.

coliveira 6y ago

Your comparison couldn't be worse. COBOL is having problems not because of the language, but because of the code created 50 years ago. For all its disadvantages, COBOL is in fact one of the most successful languages of all time because it has allowed businesses to run their software for the last 50 years. That's why it won't go away, even though no one in their sane mind would create even a new line of software in COBOL. Python decided instead that their customers were of no value, and all the millions of lines of existing Python shouldn't continue to run, even though it would be trivial for them to continue supporting 2.x syntax along with 3.x. I think it is one of the most insane decisions ever made by a mainstream programming language.

pjmlp 6y ago
Fortran and C are about the same age as COBOL, just saying.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  Fortran 1957, COBOL 1959, C 1972.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    About != the same So a systems programming language, 13 years younger than COBOL, or 10 years, given that the work in C started in 1969. http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/chist.html http://cm.bell-labs.co/who/dmr/chist.html > C came into being in the years 1969-1973, in parallel with the early development of the Unix operating system; the most creative period occurred during 1972. Another spate of changes peaked between 1977 and 1979 But lets make you a favour and consider 1972, it makes C a 48 years old systems programming language, only surpassed by NEWP (1961) as oldest systems programming language still in use in 2021. Maybe it is about time to start talking about C the same way people talk about COBOL.
    - yesenadam 6y ago
      Your comment doesn't feel like it's doing me any favours. It makes me feel like not commenting on HN any more. My last interaction, which felt similar, and put me off commenting for a while, was with someone who claimed that "most concert pianists and serious competitors have absolutely gigantic hands" then moved the goalposts around so they could be Right. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25174394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25174394 I guess I should just let vague claims lie. But, well, when something sounds wrong, it sounds wrong.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        I consider 10 years difference to fit into "about the same age". And could fit a dictionary definition on the comment to prove my point, but then we would really be moving goal posts by then.
wongarsu 6y ago
There are still new Cobol versions being released (I think the current standard is Cobol 2018), along with new tooling, presumably because it's used by companies that care about maintenance even if they are unwilling/unable to switch to a more popular language. Compare that with Python 2 where you hear about lots of companies complaining about end-of-life issues or missing migration tools, yet somehow none of them seem willing to do anything about it.