3 ms·

An aside to this specific product, but unfortunately IMHO we have gone backwards in terms of being able to visually layout GUIs (at least in the mainstream). R

An aside to this specific product, but unfortunately IMHO we have gone backwards in terms of being able to visually layout GUIs (at least in the mainstream). Regardless of the other merits of modern ecosystems, in terms of purely visual layout of GUIs (WYSIWYG with drag & drop mouse interface IOW) I think: - '90s/'00s Java IDEs > Modern Java IDEs - Dreamweaver/Frontpage > Fast Refresh Cycle - Visual Basic > Modern .NET - Interface Builder > SwiftUI

pjmlp 6y ago
Visual Basic == VB.NET with Windows Forms It isn't flashy, but it is still there. Did a project on it in 2016. Not that long ago.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dvdkon 6y ago
I think the demise of WYSIWYG GUI builders was partly just it "going out of fashion", but also partly because of rising requirements for dynamic GUIs, meaning actually changing the layout programatically, but also things like arbitrary resizing and dynamically switching based on device type ("responsive" design). All of the popular 90s RAD design tools dealt with resizing as an afterthought, which made them obsolete in many cases and probably contributed negatively to the reputation of the whole class of software. Today's WYSISYG tools (I'd say as early as mid 2000s or even before) have certainly rectified these early mistakes, but I guess fashion moved on by then.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Motif, Windows Forms, WPF, Swing all support responsive design via layout managers, and the tools do support them. And there are such tools for Web development as well, however they are oriented for the target market that actually pays for such kind of tooling, for example https://www.outsystems.com/ https://www.outsystems.com/
  - lokedhs 6y ago
    Windows Forms may have supported it, but no one seemed to use it. You still to this day see dialog boxes in Windows with microscopic text areas in windows that cannot be resized. This is an artefact of the GUI builders used where the developer just "drew" the UI components with fixed positioning. As for Motif, there were third-party GUI builders, but Motif itself did not have one as standard that I know of (I developed on Motif on Solaris when working for Sun). The layout model for Motif is so easy that you don't need a GUI builder anyway. I've used may UI frameworks since then, and Motif is still the easiest one to use in my opinion.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Just like the Web supports responsive design and not everyone actually uses it. For Motif I am aware of the one provided with Motif++, now gone from the Web, and the one provided by ICS (https://motif.ics.com/products https://motif.ics.com/products). I guess Solaris might have lacked one indeed, given NeXT's commercial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg Sun was never good at desktop software anyway, killed NeWS, Swing while powerful requires graphics programming knowledge to make cool UIs and then there was F3 (JavaFX 1.0), and the Java Desktop Framework Integration project went nowhere.
  - ptx 6y ago
    Windows Forms seems a bit lacking here, though. As far as I could tell in my attempts, the tab control doesn't support auto-sizing itself to its contents.
- zubairq 6y ago
  This is so true. We are making an ide like vb and a big part of the ease of use is because you place UI components at absolute coordinates

pjmlp 6y ago

Visual Basic == VB.NET with Windows Forms It isn't flashy, but it is still there. Did a project on it in 2016. Not that long ago.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dvdkon 6y ago

I think the demise of WYSIWYG GUI builders was partly just it "going out of fashion", but also partly because of rising requirements for dynamic GUIs, meaning actually changing the layout programatically, but also things like arbitrary resizing and dynamically switching based on device type ("responsive" design). All of the popular 90s RAD design tools dealt with resizing as an afterthought, which made them obsolete in many cases and probably contributed negatively to the reputation of the whole class of software. Today's WYSISYG tools (I'd say as early as mid 2000s or even before) have certainly rectified these early mistakes, but I guess fashion moved on by then.

pjmlp 6y ago
Motif, Windows Forms, WPF, Swing all support responsive design via layout managers, and the tools do support them. And there are such tools for Web development as well, however they are oriented for the target market that actually pays for such kind of tooling, for example https://www.outsystems.com/ https://www.outsystems.com/
- lokedhs 6y ago
  Windows Forms may have supported it, but no one seemed to use it. You still to this day see dialog boxes in Windows with microscopic text areas in windows that cannot be resized. This is an artefact of the GUI builders used where the developer just "drew" the UI components with fixed positioning. As for Motif, there were third-party GUI builders, but Motif itself did not have one as standard that I know of (I developed on Motif on Solaris when working for Sun). The layout model for Motif is so easy that you don't need a GUI builder anyway. I've used may UI frameworks since then, and Motif is still the easiest one to use in my opinion.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Just like the Web supports responsive design and not everyone actually uses it. For Motif I am aware of the one provided with Motif++, now gone from the Web, and the one provided by ICS (https://motif.ics.com/products https://motif.ics.com/products). I guess Solaris might have lacked one indeed, given NeXT's commercial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg Sun was never good at desktop software anyway, killed NeWS, Swing while powerful requires graphics programming knowledge to make cool UIs and then there was F3 (JavaFX 1.0), and the Java Desktop Framework Integration project went nowhere.
- ptx 6y ago
  Windows Forms seems a bit lacking here, though. As far as I could tell in my attempts, the tab control doesn't support auto-sizing itself to its contents.
zubairq 6y ago
This is so true. We are making an ide like vb and a big part of the ease of use is because you place UI components at absolute coordinates