3 ms·

> What uses are you talking about? > As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particu

by vaduz 6y ago

> What uses are you talking about? > As far as I understand it suppliers are generally more than happy for you to use more of their electrons and don't particularly care what you use them for. In the UK the law differentiates "domestic customers" using services for domestic purpose (this part is important, commercial use is is excluded!) and, "non-domestic" which includes all others. Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap and lower climate charge levy thanks to that (though caveats apply, as it does not include "green deals" and fixed terms) but "non-domestic" users do not. Of course you are right: the suppliers would indeed be more than happy to suply you as much of their electrons as you could obtain - at the business rates, not domestic, ideally at one where caps don't apply. Take this little innocous line from the British Gas (Centrica) standard rate T&Cs: Supply and supplying: The gas or electricity (or both) we provide, or what we do to provide them. The supply is for you to use entirely or mainly for domestic purposes There is a reason for it - a significant enough jump in energy use (say, if you want to charge an EV or put up a multi-GPU bitcoin miner) does trigger an investigation. EV users get a to select a preferential rate [1], suspected commercial users are asked to move to business rates (or show why that shouldn't be the case), any detected pot growers get referred to the appropriate police force. The energy company does care - at least so you can pay it more. > 'Smart meters' I agree that the move to more accurate/higher resolution measurement would make it possible to offer pricing that is more reflective of "true cost" - Economy 7 is well known to skew incentives, especially as more and more energy is used outside of traditional "day" hours (and with more and more solar powr in the mix, the overgeneration during the day hours) - but I would not be so optimistic that the consumers are going to be the primary beneficiaries of the change when the dust settles, they never are. As for privacy, well, there is one substantial additional difference: your bandwidth and internet usage patterns generally have to be monitored by your ISP or internet services you visit, whereas a SMETS2 meter will create a nice new 2.4 Ghz network (and 868 Mhz, if/when it is available), so sooner or later it will be readable by a local attacker, if it isn't already. This is a device that is supposed to last as long as 20 years (though SMETS1 proved this might be a bit optimistic...). [0] https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/tariffs/standard/tariff-rates https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/ta... [1] https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/tariffs/electric-drivers-energy-plan-sep-2021/tariff-rates https://www.britishgas.co.uk/GetAQuote/tariff-information/ta...

mnahkies 6y ago
Thanks for the detailed response, there's a lot to unpack there and a few things I wasn't aware of. > Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap Interesting, I didn't realize that commercial usage wasn't subject to the price cap, and generally know very little about commercial supply > EV users get a to select a preferential rate Yes most suppliers are now offering time of use tariffs that are better suited for electric vehicle owners, these typically come with a super low off peak rate, and then a higher rate the rest of the day. For someone that can charge a vehicle during that off peak time they should come out ahead, but I'd be very surprised if British gas got upset if you charged your vehicle on their standard tariffs. > any detected pot growers get referred to the appropriate police force. I thought that kind of investigation was generally instigated by the police rather than the other way around, but not 100% sure. > SMETS2 meter will create a nice new 2.4 Ghz network (and 868 Mhz I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating. Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie. Also yes smets1 was a bit of a cock up, but they aren't obsolete just dormant and in the process of joining the DCC - https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/smart-future/enrolment-and-adoption/ https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/smart-future/enrolment-and-adopti...
- vaduz 6y ago
  > I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating. Yup, I do mean the HAN - and the way CAD including IHD connect to it. It may be based on ZigBee, but it modifies the protocol to add its own authorisation and encryption prototypes. They may have sound basis as of today but given the precedent (GSM/UMTS encryption, WEP, WPA, but also Infineon cryptographic corprocessor failures), the custom modifications to ZigBee and a couple of other deviations from usual practices I would consider it almost a certainty that within the lifetime of the device the protocol will be broken or bypassed. The question is how and when, not if. Let me put it this way: I would be pleasantly surprised if it is otherwise, as that would be the exception, not the rule. > Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie. Most of the equipment I have is wired (optical or copper), including supposedly mobile devices ([0]) and the ones that aren't are not a good indicator of presence (roughly constant data stream). It's a different story if one was to bring an IMSI catcher, of course - but there is only so much you can do and still participate in the modern world. As a side note: I admit I may be biased as the meter location would preclude any IHD from being in range of HAN (5 reinforced concrete slabs away for electric, worse for gas), has problems with GSM connectivity for the same reasons and has dubious physical security against anyone who posseses a high tech tool known as "screwdriver" or "knife". The fallback procedure that UK suppliers have for this situation is "read the meter like a dumb meter" [sic!] until the supposed "alternative HAN solution" is in place. I know it puts me in the 3.5% minority of households, but still it rankles. [0] This is normally where I go on a rant about flagship Pixel USB-C powered phones being unable to charge and use network adapter at the same time due to incomplete implementation on the phone side - one or the other. Older micro-usb models could do both as long USB-OTG was supported. iOS devices have no such issue, but they have other ones.

by vaduz 6y ago

mnahkies 6y ago

Thanks for the detailed response, there's a lot to unpack there and a few things I wasn't aware of. > Domestic customers get to have a fuel price cap Interesting, I didn't realize that commercial usage wasn't subject to the price cap, and generally know very little about commercial supply > EV users get a to select a preferential rate Yes most suppliers are now offering time of use tariffs that are better suited for electric vehicle owners, these typically come with a super low off peak rate, and then a higher rate the rest of the day. For someone that can charge a vehicle during that off peak time they should come out ahead, but I'd be very surprised if British gas got upset if you charged your vehicle on their standard tariffs. > any detected pot growers get referred to the appropriate police force. I thought that kind of investigation was generally instigated by the police rather than the other way around, but not 100% sure. > SMETS2 meter will create a nice new 2.4 Ghz network (and 868 Mhz I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating. Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie. Also yes smets1 was a bit of a cock up, but they aren't obsolete just dormant and in the process of joining the DCC - https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/smart-future/enrolment-and-adoption/ https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/smart-future/enrolment-and-adopti...

vaduz 6y ago
> I presume you're meaning the HAN that the meter uses to update the in home display. As far as I'm aware this is securely encrypted. Whether it'll stand the test of time who knows (let's face it WEP and friends certainly didn't), but the same logic could be applied to the WiFi network your router is creating. Yup, I do mean the HAN - and the way CAD including IHD connect to it. It may be based on ZigBee, but it modifies the protocol to add its own authorisation and encryption prototypes. They may have sound basis as of today but given the precedent (GSM/UMTS encryption, WEP, WPA, but also Infineon cryptographic corprocessor failures), the custom modifications to ZigBee and a couple of other deviations from usual practices I would consider it almost a certainty that within the lifetime of the device the protocol will be broken or bypassed. The question is how and when, not if. Let me put it this way: I would be pleasantly surprised if it is otherwise, as that would be the exception, not the rule. > Difference being that the data going over the HAN is likely to be a constant stream of values meaning it doesn't leak much information unless you can decrypt it. Someone able to passively observe that local network can almost certainly observe your WiFi transmissions, which will be much more variable - little to no activity when you aren't home, and lots of activity when you're streaming a movie. Most of the equipment I have is wired (optical or copper), including supposedly mobile devices ([0]) and the ones that aren't are not a good indicator of presence (roughly constant data stream). It's a different story if one was to bring an IMSI catcher, of course - but there is only so much you can do and still participate in the modern world. As a side note: I admit I may be biased as the meter location would preclude any IHD from being in range of HAN (5 reinforced concrete slabs away for electric, worse for gas), has problems with GSM connectivity for the same reasons and has dubious physical security against anyone who posseses a high tech tool known as "screwdriver" or "knife". The fallback procedure that UK suppliers have for this situation is "read the meter like a dumb meter" [sic!] until the supposed "alternative HAN solution" is in place. I know it puts me in the 3.5% minority of households, but still it rankles. [0] This is normally where I go on a rant about flagship Pixel USB-C powered phones being unable to charge and use network adapter at the same time due to incomplete implementation on the phone side - one or the other. Older micro-usb models could do both as long USB-OTG was supported. iOS devices have no such issue, but they have other ones.