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Please tell me what a blockchain offers here that isn’t solved by several database tables and some business logic?

icegreentea2 6y ago
I think the smart contract part of blockchain doesn't offer much value. But I think the core value proposition of blockchain to supply-chain like situations is to solve the problem of "who's version of the database do we trust", without needing to resort to escrow or other 3rd parties. It won't completely solve the problems of parties being in disagreement - lawyers will still be needed, but it might address a subset of problems.
- wpietri 6y ago
  "Whose records do we trust" is a problem that's thousands of years old. [1] In practice, the answer is "we both keep records and compare when there's a problem". It's not clear to me that having a single shared database solves more problems than it creates. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39870485 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39870485
  - damnyou 6y ago
    "we both keep records and compare when there's a problem" is literally exactly what blockchain consensus is an algorithmic version of.
    - wpietri 6y ago
      Not at all. A blockchain requires a shared model. Everybody has to agree on what's stored. But the way it normally works is that each entity gets to do its own thing. E.g., if company A sends a package received by company B via shipper C, each one is going to keep their own records of what's going on. They don't have to agree at all on what gets kept when. There are specific, limited points of interaction. It's only if some problem occurs that everybody compares their individual records and reconciles them. That looks like waste to the "blockchain [jazz hands]" crowd. But it prevents other wastes. Like trying to get a whole industry to come to consensus on ontology and process. Or trying to comply with systems build around that fantasy process when local needs differ from the standards.
- notahacker 6y ago
  Any single centralised database performs that function though, since supply chains are emphatically not trustless and there's no more guarantee updates to a blockchain corresponds to actual changes to the physical goods. "What if the party that manages the database reverts data entered?" is really quite low on the list of risks involved in transferring goods of value between multiple independent parties, ensuring all contractual and legal requirements have been met and paying separately, and anyone given read access to a centralised database can identify edits anyway.
  - damnyou 6y ago
    While it is true that blockchains themselves cannot guarantee that they're synchronized with the physical world, they provide an irrevocable digital trail that can be used to punish bad actors, one that is relatively immune to tampering. A lot of the world operates this way—simply signing something under penalty of perjury does not guarantee that it is true, but it can be taken to court if it is later found that you're lying. A blockchain (not proof-of-work, but permissioned/BFT-based) is pretty clearly the optimal way to have an irrevocable digital trail.
    - notahacker 6y ago
      Sure, I'm not disputing that they can fulfil a role, I'm noting that [i] they're not remotely close to being a solution to the sort of problems parties use escrow for (except where the goods are digital to the extent fulfilment can be encoded into some sort of smart contract) and [ii] a distributed ledger only has value over and above a non-distributed one if other parties worry about the centralised database manager tampering with records [without leaving obvious evidence behind], which has got to be so far down the list of potential issues with most supply chains (even with respect to record keeping) it's barely a consideration. Another vendor's good old fashioned cloud datastore might be equally suitable as far as parties not being able to update records without leaving an audit trail goes, and quite possibly with a shinier front end and easier to use API.
      - damnyou 6y ago
- damnyou 6y ago
  Smart contracts can help with things like escrows. You can automate the happy path and include humans in the loop if (when) something goes wrong.
thinkmassive 6y ago
private blockchain = federated database

I think the smart contract part of blockchain doesn't offer much value. But I think the core value proposition of blockchain to supply-chain like situations is to solve the problem of "who's version of the database do we trust", without needing to resort to escrow or other 3rd parties. It won't completely solve the problems of parties being in disagreement - lawyers will still be needed, but it might address a subset of problems.

wpietri 6y ago
"Whose records do we trust" is a problem that's thousands of years old. [1] In practice, the answer is "we both keep records and compare when there's a problem". It's not clear to me that having a single shared database solves more problems than it creates. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39870485 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39870485
- damnyou 6y ago
  "we both keep records and compare when there's a problem" is literally exactly what blockchain consensus is an algorithmic version of.
  - wpietri 6y ago
    Not at all. A blockchain requires a shared model. Everybody has to agree on what's stored. But the way it normally works is that each entity gets to do its own thing. E.g., if company A sends a package received by company B via shipper C, each one is going to keep their own records of what's going on. They don't have to agree at all on what gets kept when. There are specific, limited points of interaction. It's only if some problem occurs that everybody compares their individual records and reconciles them. That looks like waste to the "blockchain [jazz hands]" crowd. But it prevents other wastes. Like trying to get a whole industry to come to consensus on ontology and process. Or trying to comply with systems build around that fantasy process when local needs differ from the standards.
notahacker 6y ago
Any single centralised database performs that function though, since supply chains are emphatically not trustless and there's no more guarantee updates to a blockchain corresponds to actual changes to the physical goods. "What if the party that manages the database reverts data entered?" is really quite low on the list of risks involved in transferring goods of value between multiple independent parties, ensuring all contractual and legal requirements have been met and paying separately, and anyone given read access to a centralised database can identify edits anyway.
- damnyou 6y ago
  While it is true that blockchains themselves cannot guarantee that they're synchronized with the physical world, they provide an irrevocable digital trail that can be used to punish bad actors, one that is relatively immune to tampering. A lot of the world operates this way—simply signing something under penalty of perjury does not guarantee that it is true, but it can be taken to court if it is later found that you're lying. A blockchain (not proof-of-work, but permissioned/BFT-based) is pretty clearly the optimal way to have an irrevocable digital trail.
  - notahacker 6y ago
    Sure, I'm not disputing that they can fulfil a role, I'm noting that [i] they're not remotely close to being a solution to the sort of problems parties use escrow for (except where the goods are digital to the extent fulfilment can be encoded into some sort of smart contract) and [ii] a distributed ledger only has value over and above a non-distributed one if other parties worry about the centralised database manager tampering with records [without leaving obvious evidence behind], which has got to be so far down the list of potential issues with most supply chains (even with respect to record keeping) it's barely a consideration. Another vendor's good old fashioned cloud datastore might be equally suitable as far as parties not being able to update records without leaving an audit trail goes, and quite possibly with a shinier front end and easier to use API.
    - damnyou 6y ago
damnyou 6y ago
Smart contracts can help with things like escrows. You can automate the happy path and include humans in the loop if (when) something goes wrong.

thinkmassive 6y ago

private blockchain = federated database