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I think the Swiss Made Safe Messaging is suspect to those who know about backdoors. In fact the Swiss sold “encrytped” crypto phones with backdoors baked in as

I think the Swiss Made Safe Messaging is suspect to those who know about backdoors. In fact the Swiss sold “encrytped” crypto phones with backdoors baked in as a business model. You paid to get spied on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG

WanderPanda 6y ago
I think people underestimate how much of a blow this is for Switzerland
- ur-whale 6y ago
  That and the fact that they sold "banking secrecy" to the whole of Europe for the better part of a century only to betray all those promises in the 21st century.
  - saiya-jin 6y ago
    Banking secrecy was removed due to peer pressure from EU and US, which together form a majority of exports for Switzerland. They just did make keeping the secrecy extremely costly in form of import tariffs on Swiss goods. Originally intended as a fine example of government actually caring about privacy of its own citizens, then heavily misused by local and international banks, it just stopped making sense anymore at one point. Its still somewhat valid for its own citizens and AFAIK residents. Banking together is cca 12% of Swiss economy, so the fantasy of some folks who read let's say alternative news about Switzerland ruining itself by losing banking secrecy didn't pan out. Swiss economy is much more reliant on tons of small/medium high quality manufacturing companies, or tourism rather than banking.
nabla9 6y ago
You seem to associate two completely separate things only because they are both incorporated in Switzerland. Crypto_AG (founded in 1952) was part of secret US/West German government project. Are you claiming that Andreas Wiebe, Hulbee AG, Swisscows AG are also working for the US government?
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  Well if they are leaning on the reputation the Swiss as being neutral or otherwise more trustworthy, then it's relevant.
  - nabla9 6y ago
    They are neutral and trustworthy. Significantly so. Nobody is absolutely neutral or always trustworthy. It's argumentation error to move from is not completely neutral and has had some issues to saying "it's all bullshit".
    - paulryanrogers 6y ago
      Didn't mean to dismiss them out right. Rather that banking on 'Swiss' as a shortcut isn't wise. Obviously if one does the work to audit those involved or the product/service itself then they can trust it regardless of the marketing.
      - saiya-jin 6y ago
        What does banking has to do with secure messaging? That's pretty basic strawman argument. For example US does Blackwater and did MK Ultra on its own citizens, so what? Banking en Suisse adheres to Swiss laws, which are heavily influenced by EU and US laws these days. If some private company decides to break the law, they will be handled accordingly.
        paulryanrogers 6y ago
        Banking as is depending upon, not financial services.
- 3327 6y ago
  I think his association is not far fetched, did you read the post and the Narrative? Are they not using the “Swiss” brand as a pretext to convey safety and imply security? OP is pointing out a clear and recent example that the “Hey this is Swiss” therefore must be “safe, secure, reliable” is no longer the truth.
dgellow 6y ago
Though it was a CIA ops. That doesn’t make everything “swiss made” suspect (but it clearly impacted the “Swiss made” brand and Zug’s reputation). Switzerland has strict data protection laws, that’s why some companies are established there and pushing that branding (also, low taxes).
- fmajid 6y ago
  CIA and BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst, the German intelligence service). They actually owned the CryptoAG company. It's become a big political scandal there, with accusations that the Swiss intelligence services knew and deliberately misled their parliament.
  - acct776 6y ago
    Of course some of them knew.
- nix23 6y ago
  If your intelligence service let the biggest bank of Switzerland (UBS) buy those product, there is no excuse, and later being proud of the whole thing (as a neutral country) it's a shame and a shit stain on our integrity (which is/was more or less the only real quality of Swiss services)
idlewords 6y ago
We all know Swiss products are full of holes.
- Rochus 6y ago
  Only the cheese.
tptacek 6y ago
A peeve of mine: pretty much all "made outside the US" messaging is sketchy, because one of the most important differences between stuff run in the US and stuff run outside the US is that NSA doesn't need special permission to hack stuff run outside the US --- in fact, hacking stuff outside of the US is basically their whole charter. I'm not saying you should purposefully select US technology in order to avoid surveillance, just that "hosted or made in Switzerland" messaging in privacy tools isn't very meaningful, and takes advantage of an emotional reaction in prospective customers, not a rational one.
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  That might be true if you are US person. If you're not, like 95% of the mankind, using non-US hosted services lowers the threat. Nobody knows how much since the answer lies in NSA capabilities. But as a smart approach, for folks ie in Europe, US is a big no-no if security is a concern.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I don't see how it does; if you're a non-US person using a non-US service, you have essentially no formal legal protections whatsoever from NSA surveillance. A non-US person using a US service at least inherits whatever procedural protections US companies have. I'm not saying it's a meaningful barrier, just that going overseas logically can't gain you protection (unless you're more worried about the Swiss or EU's sigint agencies than you are the NSA).
    - Barrin92 6y ago
      As a non-US person I'm not concerned about the NSA, it doesn't have a material impact on me, it's not like the NSA orders a black helicopter to snatch me from Germany. I'm worried about corporate use of my data because that stuff can actually realistically leak or be used for ads or whatever else and in this case I have probably better default protections with a Swiss company than with a US based one. (with some exceptions of course, Signal and so on seem trustworthy).
systemvoltage 6y ago
There is also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_(interception_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_(interception_system) > The goal of the system is to monitor both civil and military communications, such as telephone, fax or Internet traffic, carried by satellite.
abc03 6y ago
Crypto was founded by a Swede and moved to Switzerland because of taxes. Hardly the Swiss would think of it as a Swiss company. It‘s quite easy to set up a company in Switzerland. Few questions are asked. Swiss intelligence knew from 1993 that it is owned by the CIA and BND and did not rely on their machine. It was suspected for a long time that they are not safe. In addition, there are indications that the Military knew already in the 70‘s it is owned by the CIA through employees working there. The policy seemed to be observing, rather than investigating, so they wouldn‘t have to stop it. But true, the Swiss should have blocked the whole operation.

WanderPanda 6y ago

I think people underestimate how much of a blow this is for Switzerland

ur-whale 6y ago
That and the fact that they sold "banking secrecy" to the whole of Europe for the better part of a century only to betray all those promises in the 21st century.
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  Banking secrecy was removed due to peer pressure from EU and US, which together form a majority of exports for Switzerland. They just did make keeping the secrecy extremely costly in form of import tariffs on Swiss goods. Originally intended as a fine example of government actually caring about privacy of its own citizens, then heavily misused by local and international banks, it just stopped making sense anymore at one point. Its still somewhat valid for its own citizens and AFAIK residents. Banking together is cca 12% of Swiss economy, so the fantasy of some folks who read let's say alternative news about Switzerland ruining itself by losing banking secrecy didn't pan out. Swiss economy is much more reliant on tons of small/medium high quality manufacturing companies, or tourism rather than banking.

nabla9 6y ago

You seem to associate two completely separate things only because they are both incorporated in Switzerland. Crypto_AG (founded in 1952) was part of secret US/West German government project. Are you claiming that Andreas Wiebe, Hulbee AG, Swisscows AG are also working for the US government?

paulryanrogers 6y ago
Well if they are leaning on the reputation the Swiss as being neutral or otherwise more trustworthy, then it's relevant.
- nabla9 6y ago
  They are neutral and trustworthy. Significantly so. Nobody is absolutely neutral or always trustworthy. It's argumentation error to move from is not completely neutral and has had some issues to saying "it's all bullshit".
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    Didn't mean to dismiss them out right. Rather that banking on 'Swiss' as a shortcut isn't wise. Obviously if one does the work to audit those involved or the product/service itself then they can trust it regardless of the marketing.
    - saiya-jin 6y ago
      What does banking has to do with secure messaging? That's pretty basic strawman argument. For example US does Blackwater and did MK Ultra on its own citizens, so what? Banking en Suisse adheres to Swiss laws, which are heavily influenced by EU and US laws these days. If some private company decides to break the law, they will be handled accordingly.
      - paulryanrogers 6y ago
        Banking as is depending upon, not financial services.
3327 6y ago
I think his association is not far fetched, did you read the post and the Narrative? Are they not using the “Swiss” brand as a pretext to convey safety and imply security? OP is pointing out a clear and recent example that the “Hey this is Swiss” therefore must be “safe, secure, reliable” is no longer the truth.

dgellow 6y ago

Though it was a CIA ops. That doesn’t make everything “swiss made” suspect (but it clearly impacted the “Swiss made” brand and Zug’s reputation). Switzerland has strict data protection laws, that’s why some companies are established there and pushing that branding (also, low taxes).

fmajid 6y ago
CIA and BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst, the German intelligence service). They actually owned the CryptoAG company. It's become a big political scandal there, with accusations that the Swiss intelligence services knew and deliberately misled their parliament.
- acct776 6y ago
  Of course some of them knew.
nix23 6y ago
If your intelligence service let the biggest bank of Switzerland (UBS) buy those product, there is no excuse, and later being proud of the whole thing (as a neutral country) it's a shame and a shit stain on our integrity (which is/was more or less the only real quality of Swiss services)

idlewords 6y ago

We all know Swiss products are full of holes.

Rochus 6y ago
Only the cheese.

tptacek 6y ago

A peeve of mine: pretty much all "made outside the US" messaging is sketchy, because one of the most important differences between stuff run in the US and stuff run outside the US is that NSA doesn't need special permission to hack stuff run outside the US --- in fact, hacking stuff outside of the US is basically their whole charter. I'm not saying you should purposefully select US technology in order to avoid surveillance, just that "hosted or made in Switzerland" messaging in privacy tools isn't very meaningful, and takes advantage of an emotional reaction in prospective customers, not a rational one.

saiya-jin 6y ago
That might be true if you are US person. If you're not, like 95% of the mankind, using non-US hosted services lowers the threat. Nobody knows how much since the answer lies in NSA capabilities. But as a smart approach, for folks ie in Europe, US is a big no-no if security is a concern.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I don't see how it does; if you're a non-US person using a non-US service, you have essentially no formal legal protections whatsoever from NSA surveillance. A non-US person using a US service at least inherits whatever procedural protections US companies have. I'm not saying it's a meaningful barrier, just that going overseas logically can't gain you protection (unless you're more worried about the Swiss or EU's sigint agencies than you are the NSA).
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    As a non-US person I'm not concerned about the NSA, it doesn't have a material impact on me, it's not like the NSA orders a black helicopter to snatch me from Germany. I'm worried about corporate use of my data because that stuff can actually realistically leak or be used for ads or whatever else and in this case I have probably better default protections with a Swiss company than with a US based one. (with some exceptions of course, Signal and so on seem trustworthy).

systemvoltage 6y ago

There is also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_(interception_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_(interception_system) > The goal of the system is to monitor both civil and military communications, such as telephone, fax or Internet traffic, carried by satellite.

abc03 6y ago

Crypto was founded by a Swede and moved to Switzerland because of taxes. Hardly the Swiss would think of it as a Swiss company. It‘s quite easy to set up a company in Switzerland. Few questions are asked. Swiss intelligence knew from 1993 that it is owned by the CIA and BND and did not rely on their machine. It was suspected for a long time that they are not safe. In addition, there are indications that the Military knew already in the 70‘s it is owned by the CIA through employees working there. The policy seemed to be observing, rather than investigating, so they wouldn‘t have to stop it. But true, the Swiss should have blocked the whole operation.