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Read Debt by Graeber so you can stop believing in the myth of barter. Then think again.

forgotmypw77 6y ago
i don,t think it is a myth, i do it all the time, living almost entirely without currency. digital technology only makes barter more easy and accessible. converting every trade into numbers and back is an outmoded method, which i think will become less used with time.
- 317070 6y ago
  That is basically what the book is telling. You are probably not tit-for-tat bartering, but taking on debts and returning things you owe in some more vague approach. History went through multiple cycles where currency went in disuse in favor of just tracking and settling debts.
  - forgotmypw77 6y ago
    actually, i,m gifting without asking for anything in return. when i need something, it is offered or i ask.
    - 317070 6y ago
      Exactly, that is the alternative system which was the default. It has gone through a number of cycles in history and is not always thought of the same way across different cultures (which is why there is a whole book on the topic). But it is a recurring theme in history, and most (all?) monetary systems were traded for this alternative within 1000 years. For me, in Western Europe, this was 500 years ago between roughly 1000-1500. The churches were fitted with gold roofs, and because of the lack of coinage and currency, most people lived their lives with this alternative approach, only rarely coming across money, currency, accounting and debt.
gorgoiler 6y ago
Thank you for the reference, and I look forward to understanding what you mean by myth. Barter is literally my life. I teach other people’s children about life and Computer Science in order to buy potatoes. The children’s parents make medicine and build houses to pay for their children’s education. Is your point that barter is about goods, whereas most people provide services (time, labour?) Or perhaps you mean that the majority of the economy in terms of wealth is engaged in the investment of capital, and we potato eaters are but a percentage of a percentage?
- 317070 6y ago
  With barter is meant (in the context of Graeber's book) trading tit for tat, without having a currency to go between. E.g. a farmer buying a book and paying with apples. The book says that this barter method is almost never used, and instead people tend to keep track of favors and things they owe in a more vague way. And every now and then, these debts are settled in a communal fashion. But barter is not used. So the farmer just asks for the book and gets it. And when autumn comes, and the bookstore owner feels like having an apple, he just goes to the farmer and asks for some. But the two transactions are not really linked.
  - gorgoiler 6y ago
    Right. I feel like that’s nit picking (your parent; not you.) Of course I (teacher) don’t buy potatoes by teaching the farmer’s children Dijkstra. Instead of bartering we chooses to track our debts. Using Bitcoin as a cryptographically secure distributed debt tracker sounds great. But Bitcoin right now feels like a bunch of technology enthusiasts have blessed the world with such a debt tracker while also saying ”btw you collectively owe us $630,000,000,000 worth of stuff”.
    - 317070 6y ago
      Also, this digital debt tracker uses numbers, which most of these communal debt systems do not do. Because different people put different value to things, tracking debt in numbers is not how it is done (the book goes in a lot of detail how this works). This is what makes bitcoin a currency, a way to track debts rather than having them implicit. I'm not sure where on the globe you are at, but where I am from, groups of friends buy rounds of beers at the bar. You do not keep track of whose turn it is to pay the round or whether someone is buying more expensive stuff, but since you are friends you make sure things are fair over time. But implicitly, not tracking numbers and accounts. And Graeber argues that that is actually the method that predates currency. Not barter. I fully agree on the hilariously large "primordial" debt we somehow owe the early miners.
Proven 6y ago
That book is socialist junk. To GP: yes, you buy BTC with fiat and cannot buy anything with it because BTC isn't money. It has no other function except acting as currency.

i don,t think it is a myth, i do it all the time, living almost entirely without currency. digital technology only makes barter more easy and accessible. converting every trade into numbers and back is an outmoded method, which i think will become less used with time.

317070 6y ago
That is basically what the book is telling. You are probably not tit-for-tat bartering, but taking on debts and returning things you owe in some more vague approach. History went through multiple cycles where currency went in disuse in favor of just tracking and settling debts.
- forgotmypw77 6y ago
  actually, i,m gifting without asking for anything in return. when i need something, it is offered or i ask.
  - 317070 6y ago
    Exactly, that is the alternative system which was the default. It has gone through a number of cycles in history and is not always thought of the same way across different cultures (which is why there is a whole book on the topic). But it is a recurring theme in history, and most (all?) monetary systems were traded for this alternative within 1000 years. For me, in Western Europe, this was 500 years ago between roughly 1000-1500. The churches were fitted with gold roofs, and because of the lack of coinage and currency, most people lived their lives with this alternative approach, only rarely coming across money, currency, accounting and debt.

gorgoiler 6y ago

Thank you for the reference, and I look forward to understanding what you mean by myth. Barter is literally my life. I teach other people’s children about life and Computer Science in order to buy potatoes. The children’s parents make medicine and build houses to pay for their children’s education. Is your point that barter is about goods, whereas most people provide services (time, labour?) Or perhaps you mean that the majority of the economy in terms of wealth is engaged in the investment of capital, and we potato eaters are but a percentage of a percentage?

317070 6y ago
With barter is meant (in the context of Graeber's book) trading tit for tat, without having a currency to go between. E.g. a farmer buying a book and paying with apples. The book says that this barter method is almost never used, and instead people tend to keep track of favors and things they owe in a more vague way. And every now and then, these debts are settled in a communal fashion. But barter is not used. So the farmer just asks for the book and gets it. And when autumn comes, and the bookstore owner feels like having an apple, he just goes to the farmer and asks for some. But the two transactions are not really linked.
- gorgoiler 6y ago
  Right. I feel like that’s nit picking (your parent; not you.) Of course I (teacher) don’t buy potatoes by teaching the farmer’s children Dijkstra. Instead of bartering we chooses to track our debts. Using Bitcoin as a cryptographically secure distributed debt tracker sounds great. But Bitcoin right now feels like a bunch of technology enthusiasts have blessed the world with such a debt tracker while also saying ”btw you collectively owe us $630,000,000,000 worth of stuff”.
  - 317070 6y ago
    Also, this digital debt tracker uses numbers, which most of these communal debt systems do not do. Because different people put different value to things, tracking debt in numbers is not how it is done (the book goes in a lot of detail how this works). This is what makes bitcoin a currency, a way to track debts rather than having them implicit. I'm not sure where on the globe you are at, but where I am from, groups of friends buy rounds of beers at the bar. You do not keep track of whose turn it is to pay the round or whether someone is buying more expensive stuff, but since you are friends you make sure things are fair over time. But implicitly, not tracking numbers and accounts. And Graeber argues that that is actually the method that predates currency. Not barter. I fully agree on the hilariously large "primordial" debt we somehow owe the early miners.

Proven 6y ago

That book is socialist junk. To GP: yes, you buy BTC with fiat and cannot buy anything with it because BTC isn't money. It has no other function except acting as currency.