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EVs currently have high enough utility in the wealthy suburbia where you own your garage and have the capability to charge overnight. If you are a euro-peasant

EVs currently have high enough utility in the wealthy suburbia where you own your garage and have the capability to charge overnight. If you are a euro-peasant living in a third floor apartment, street parking and commuting to work, then an EV has very little utility to offer. You cannot expect that people will go on a regular basis to charge stations and spend an hour to charge their car. You cannot also have a reasonable expectation that employers will install a charger per employee, or that employees will gamble every day to see if there is a charger open at work. An EV cannot be your single car given the 2 main constraints: 1. Slow charging (>>5') 2. Lack of charging networks #2 can be fixed with investments. #1 needs a technological advance that is not clear that will be commercially available soon. I did not mention cost at all in the above comment, which is maybe the biggest factor currently limiting adoption, but I assume that eventually economies of scale will aleviate this.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
notimetorelax 6y ago
Agree with your points. I believe this may be a solution to #1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric... I wonder what’s the dynamic with the chargers in Norway, as I assume if the demand is there the charging stations will pop up.
- ginko 6y ago
  In Norway if you have a parking spot at an apartment block and want a charging station to be installed the housing association can't deny your request. At least when you're the home owner (the vast majority of Norwegians owns rather than rents). Not completely sure how things are for renters, but electric cars are so common at this point that most landlords will probably allow it if only to raise the value of their place.
erikrothoff 6y ago
I’m literally a euro-peasant in my third floor apartment with street parking outside my third floor apartment window. The city has but up a bunch of charging parking stations on said street parking and it’s great. There are no gas stations on the ”island” (Södermalm, Stockholm) I live on, but a ton of electric street parking charging stations. I think the decentralisation of these types of charging stations will win in the end. The price of electric cars currently is a problem though, but everything is pointing in the right direction.
- whatever1 6y ago
  Let's take Madrid as an example of a typical densely populated euro-city. ~ 3M population, half a million registered cars. I really don't see it economically, environmentally, or even technically viable to install a quarter million chargers to fix the battery charging problem.
  - erikrothoff 6y ago
    Why would a quarter of a million chargers be needed? Seems really excessive.
    - whatever1 6y ago
      Because every car needs to charge 1-2 times per week and you also don't want to park 10 blocks away from home. Maybe 50% coverage is indeed excessive, but it is correct ballpark estimate. Maybe you can get away with 20-30% in cities with less lazy (and more coordinated) people :)
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    Only if none of the 500k cars can be charged at home.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
    Many of these already have lampposts. If the wiring isn't strong enough to support chargers (it might, for slow charging, if the cables were designed for old lighting technology), fine, dig up the street, lay thicker cables, use the opportunity to bury FTTH, and you can now place a charger at every parking bay.
missedthecue 6y ago
swappable batteries seems like a two birds, one stone solution, though i'm aware they have drawbacks of their own
- whatever1 6y ago
  Even if we assume battery size/shape standardization, this would move the baterry liability from the car owner to the battery pack vendor, since they would have to maintain the batteries in circulation (introduce new ones, retire old ones) etc. This would require crazy high locked capital and it would cause the cost to be prohibitively high for a casual weekly swap.
- ferongr 6y ago
  I wouldn't trust a high voltage battery pack that is structurally important to the chassis to the minimum wage equivalent of an oil place technician with the uuga-duuga impact gun.
theshrike79 6y ago
People fixate on charging speed and forget that the best use case for EVs is to literally charge them when you sleep at a low current. If the the street has lights on it, they can be used to deliver power to EV cars easily. Adding Type2 plugs and kWh meters to street lights is not a technical issue, it's a political thing of who gets the money and who pays for the up-front costs. 230V/8A per car with smart load balancing will charge 100km of charge overnight. Up that to 12 amps and you've covered the majority of Europeans' daily commute. Won't work for the US though, your two hour commutes are Mad Max -levels of madness =)
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  For people who commute to work, a logical place to put the chargers would be at work. It could even be mandated.
xbmcuser 6y ago
I disagree charging points should be introduced at work place parking rather than home. In the day time we have a lot of excess electricity available from solar where as at night gas and coal plants are used. If everyone starts charging at home more coal and gas plants will be needed to be built which will result in higher electricity prices for everyone as capacity payment parts of the electricity bills increase. Majority of cars are parked in parking spots at work between 9am to 5pm just like they are parked at home for 10-11pm to 7-8am at home. Electricity from solar is still getting cheaper by 15-20% a year most of us don't see it in our bills is because of capacity payments that power producers negotiated into our bills.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > In the day time we have a lot of excess electricity available from solar where as at night gas and coal plants are used This doesn’t seem right - why is power usage on my bill cheaper at night and usually marked as ‘off peak’ usage or similar?
  - siscia 6y ago
    Both can be true. We don't have anywhere enough solar capacity for this. And at night it is still off peak for the consumption. Parent is making a projection in the future, when solar will be plenty available during the day. Today it is not the case yet.
FlyingSnake 6y ago
Another Euro-peasant living in a 2nd floor apartment with street parking here. My street and kiez is full of electric chargers and special parking zones for them. Recently Germany passed a law that enables all gas stations to have electric chargers. I’ve booked an e-up! and it’s a perfect city car for small errands and weekend excursions to Potsdam etc.
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
#1 had a practical solution back in 1896: replaceable batteries. At the dawn of the 20th century, the electric car was the most popular type of car after steam-powered. Their range was limited of course, but they had many features that were improvements over Gasoline-powered cars. So, how was it that many cities around the world used electric cars and trucks more than any other type? Two ways: 1) fleets where you could drop off one car and pick up another, and 2) an easily-replaceable battery. Just drive to a service station and replace the battery and get back on your way. At least one company providing these services operated for 14 years. Funny how tech people always look for a tech solution, and business people look for a business solution.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

notimetorelax 6y ago

Agree with your points. I believe this may be a solution to #1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric... I wonder what’s the dynamic with the chargers in Norway, as I assume if the demand is there the charging stations will pop up.

ginko 6y ago
In Norway if you have a parking spot at an apartment block and want a charging station to be installed the housing association can't deny your request. At least when you're the home owner (the vast majority of Norwegians owns rather than rents). Not completely sure how things are for renters, but electric cars are so common at this point that most landlords will probably allow it if only to raise the value of their place.

erikrothoff 6y ago

I’m literally a euro-peasant in my third floor apartment with street parking outside my third floor apartment window. The city has but up a bunch of charging parking stations on said street parking and it’s great. There are no gas stations on the ”island” (Södermalm, Stockholm) I live on, but a ton of electric street parking charging stations. I think the decentralisation of these types of charging stations will win in the end. The price of electric cars currently is a problem though, but everything is pointing in the right direction.

whatever1 6y ago
Let's take Madrid as an example of a typical densely populated euro-city. ~ 3M population, half a million registered cars. I really don't see it economically, environmentally, or even technically viable to install a quarter million chargers to fix the battery charging problem.
- erikrothoff 6y ago
  Why would a quarter of a million chargers be needed? Seems really excessive.
  - whatever1 6y ago
    Because every car needs to charge 1-2 times per week and you also don't want to park 10 blocks away from home. Maybe 50% coverage is indeed excessive, but it is correct ballpark estimate. Maybe you can get away with 20-30% in cities with less lazy (and more coordinated) people :)
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Only if none of the 500k cars can be charged at home.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  Many of these already have lampposts. If the wiring isn't strong enough to support chargers (it might, for slow charging, if the cables were designed for old lighting technology), fine, dig up the street, lay thicker cables, use the opportunity to bury FTTH, and you can now place a charger at every parking bay.

missedthecue 6y ago

swappable batteries seems like a two birds, one stone solution, though i'm aware they have drawbacks of their own

whatever1 6y ago
Even if we assume battery size/shape standardization, this would move the baterry liability from the car owner to the battery pack vendor, since they would have to maintain the batteries in circulation (introduce new ones, retire old ones) etc. This would require crazy high locked capital and it would cause the cost to be prohibitively high for a casual weekly swap.
ferongr 6y ago
I wouldn't trust a high voltage battery pack that is structurally important to the chassis to the minimum wage equivalent of an oil place technician with the uuga-duuga impact gun.

theshrike79 6y ago

People fixate on charging speed and forget that the best use case for EVs is to literally charge them when you sleep at a low current. If the the street has lights on it, they can be used to deliver power to EV cars easily. Adding Type2 plugs and kWh meters to street lights is not a technical issue, it's a political thing of who gets the money and who pays for the up-front costs. 230V/8A per car with smart load balancing will charge 100km of charge overnight. Up that to 12 amps and you've covered the majority of Europeans' daily commute. Won't work for the US though, your two hour commutes are Mad Max -levels of madness =)

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
For people who commute to work, a logical place to put the chargers would be at work. It could even be mandated.

xbmcuser 6y ago

I disagree charging points should be introduced at work place parking rather than home. In the day time we have a lot of excess electricity available from solar where as at night gas and coal plants are used. If everyone starts charging at home more coal and gas plants will be needed to be built which will result in higher electricity prices for everyone as capacity payment parts of the electricity bills increase. Majority of cars are parked in parking spots at work between 9am to 5pm just like they are parked at home for 10-11pm to 7-8am at home. Electricity from solar is still getting cheaper by 15-20% a year most of us don't see it in our bills is because of capacity payments that power producers negotiated into our bills.

lostlogin 6y ago
> In the day time we have a lot of excess electricity available from solar where as at night gas and coal plants are used This doesn’t seem right - why is power usage on my bill cheaper at night and usually marked as ‘off peak’ usage or similar?
- siscia 6y ago
  Both can be true. We don't have anywhere enough solar capacity for this. And at night it is still off peak for the consumption. Parent is making a projection in the future, when solar will be plenty available during the day. Today it is not the case yet.

FlyingSnake 6y ago

Another Euro-peasant living in a 2nd floor apartment with street parking here. My street and kiez is full of electric chargers and special parking zones for them. Recently Germany passed a law that enables all gas stations to have electric chargers. I’ve booked an e-up! and it’s a perfect city car for small errands and weekend excursions to Potsdam etc.

0xbadcafebee 6y ago

#1 had a practical solution back in 1896: replaceable batteries. At the dawn of the 20th century, the electric car was the most popular type of car after steam-powered. Their range was limited of course, but they had many features that were improvements over Gasoline-powered cars. So, how was it that many cities around the world used electric cars and trucks more than any other type? Two ways: 1) fleets where you could drop off one car and pick up another, and 2) an easily-replaceable battery. Just drive to a service station and replace the battery and get back on your way. At least one company providing these services operated for 14 years. Funny how tech people always look for a tech solution, and business people look for a business solution.