3 ms·

You don't know my name in the street and I don't know yours. We manage to be perfectly civil to each other. And my reputation does not follow between groups ei

by Swizec 6y ago

You don't know my name in the street and I don't know yours. We manage to be perfectly civil to each other. And my reputation does not follow between groups either. I can even have completely distinct friend groups for different activities. Nobody at boxing class knows anybody I work with and the people that hang out with me at a bar can be a completely new set all over. I could even use different names in all these groups! :O Yet we're all perfectly civil. The same works online. I choose to use `swizec` everywhere, but is `ralston3` the same as `@r_ralston3` on twitter? Who knows. Does it matter? Not in the least. Look at us being perfectly fine fellows to each other. On the other hand, you have to show government ID to walk into a bar and yet people are kicked out for bad behavior all the time.

root_axis 6y ago
> We manage to be perfectly civil to each other. Huh? People get "censored" all the time on this site due to incivility. Edit: I misread the parent comment, sorry :)
- smichel17 6y ago
  The comment was talking about irl.
- generalizations 6y ago
  Yep, they get censored. We manage a totally reasonable level of moderation in an anonymous environment. RealIDs wouldn't improve on that.
markdown 6y ago
> Yet we're all perfectly civil. There are no real-world consequences for being an anonymous jerk online, so you are comparing apples and oranges. > On the other hand, you have to show government ID to walk into a bar and yet people are kicked out for bad behavior all the time. That's because under the influence of alcohol, one stops caring as much about real world consequences. Being anon online is (somewhat) like being a drunk in a bar (for some people). Your examples here have proven the opposite of what you were trying to say.
- type0 6y ago
  As the saying goes: "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog".
nemo44x 6y ago
Maybe it’s because you can’t get your ass kicked by being uncivil on the internet anonymously? People are kicked out of bars for being assholes and it’s because they have been drinking their inhibitions are lowered and judgement of consequences is disrupted. Similarity to anonymous assholes on the Internet - their inhibitions are lowered because there’s no consequence. I don’t think we should require names use or prohibit anonymous contributions. But the culture of the internet is pretty bad in this regard today when millions of anonymous people spend millions of hours getting riled up at shit posts from anonymous people.
fossuser 6y ago
Pseudonymity and anonymity are not the same thing. Pseudonyms that are not trivially created and discarded can build reputation and will generally behave themselves (see Urbit’s approach to this problem). Anonymous accounts incentivize awful behavior (see 4chan). Real life is different because you’re not truly anonymous in person - you’re recognizable most of the time and identifiable. There are also more in person norms and social constraints. The exception to this in real life might be mobs, where the chaos and confusion can provide some anonymity and well - people in mobs don’t behave that well either.
- Swizec 6y ago
  Fair, pseudonymity works very well. I think a lot of it comes down to social norms. From what I remember, 4chan was almost boringly pleasant outside /b/. Because the norm and moderation were towards thoughtful posting. On the other hand pseudonymous reddits with the norm of knee jerk responses and political twitter are awful. Because that’s the encouraged norm.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  This very site is a good counterpoint to your distinction. HN allows for easy creation of anonymous accounts, and doesn't do much to help you track who says what. And yet some people, by choosing to stick to their handle over time, build a reputation. And yet, even the anonymous people mostly behave, and we end up with a civil community. Personally, I think the important factors for maintaining a civil community is a focus on civility, some overt selection of topics (vs. having a group that's about everything), and a lot of moderation work in the background that prevents the decay of standards. Social norms, unfortunately, don't maintain themselves.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Most HN accounts are pseudonymous with the occasional anonymous throw away for something specific. HN also has great moderation (thanks DanG) and a strict set of rules which helps. If HN was truly anonymous (everyone posted under anon accounts) I think it would decay and I’m not sure DanG would be able to save it. I do think Urbit’s approach to this (low cost to creating an ID) is a really good one for handling this problem and the general problem of spam decentralized, and at scale. https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/ https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/

by Swizec 6y ago

root_axis 6y ago

> We manage to be perfectly civil to each other. Huh? People get "censored" all the time on this site due to incivility. Edit: I misread the parent comment, sorry :)

smichel17 6y ago
The comment was talking about irl.
generalizations 6y ago
Yep, they get censored. We manage a totally reasonable level of moderation in an anonymous environment. RealIDs wouldn't improve on that.

markdown 6y ago

> Yet we're all perfectly civil. There are no real-world consequences for being an anonymous jerk online, so you are comparing apples and oranges. > On the other hand, you have to show government ID to walk into a bar and yet people are kicked out for bad behavior all the time. That's because under the influence of alcohol, one stops caring as much about real world consequences. Being anon online is (somewhat) like being a drunk in a bar (for some people). Your examples here have proven the opposite of what you were trying to say.

type0 6y ago
As the saying goes: "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog".

nemo44x 6y ago

Maybe it’s because you can’t get your ass kicked by being uncivil on the internet anonymously? People are kicked out of bars for being assholes and it’s because they have been drinking their inhibitions are lowered and judgement of consequences is disrupted. Similarity to anonymous assholes on the Internet - their inhibitions are lowered because there’s no consequence. I don’t think we should require names use or prohibit anonymous contributions. But the culture of the internet is pretty bad in this regard today when millions of anonymous people spend millions of hours getting riled up at shit posts from anonymous people.

fossuser 6y ago

Pseudonymity and anonymity are not the same thing. Pseudonyms that are not trivially created and discarded can build reputation and will generally behave themselves (see Urbit’s approach to this problem). Anonymous accounts incentivize awful behavior (see 4chan). Real life is different because you’re not truly anonymous in person - you’re recognizable most of the time and identifiable. There are also more in person norms and social constraints. The exception to this in real life might be mobs, where the chaos and confusion can provide some anonymity and well - people in mobs don’t behave that well either.

Swizec 6y ago
Fair, pseudonymity works very well. I think a lot of it comes down to social norms. From what I remember, 4chan was almost boringly pleasant outside /b/. Because the norm and moderation were towards thoughtful posting. On the other hand pseudonymous reddits with the norm of knee jerk responses and political twitter are awful. Because that’s the encouraged norm.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
This very site is a good counterpoint to your distinction. HN allows for easy creation of anonymous accounts, and doesn't do much to help you track who says what. And yet some people, by choosing to stick to their handle over time, build a reputation. And yet, even the anonymous people mostly behave, and we end up with a civil community. Personally, I think the important factors for maintaining a civil community is a focus on civility, some overt selection of topics (vs. having a group that's about everything), and a lot of moderation work in the background that prevents the decay of standards. Social norms, unfortunately, don't maintain themselves.
- fossuser 6y ago
  Most HN accounts are pseudonymous with the occasional anonymous throw away for something specific. HN also has great moderation (thanks DanG) and a strict set of rules which helps. If HN was truly anonymous (everyone posted under anon accounts) I think it would decay and I’m not sure DanG would be able to save it. I do think Urbit’s approach to this (low cost to creating an ID) is a really good one for handling this problem and the general problem of spam decentralized, and at scale. https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/ https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/