3 ms·

> It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The

by edbob 6y ago

> It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The holidays generally fall on different days. Why not say "Merry Christmas" on Dec 25 and say "Happy Hannukah" on the appropriate date(s), etc.? That would be more inclusive without appearing to snub anyone, and it would be interesting to hear about holidays you might not otherwise be aware of.

majormajor 6y ago
Maybe I'm cynical about the folks I grew up with, but I think if people got wished Merry Christmas by their barista on just 1 day, but Happy Hanukkah for 8 days, we'd suddenly see a lot more complaints about the War on Christmas... ;) I've been immersed in both sides of this for different large parts of my life, but I find it hard to place the blame on both sides. The Christians who get upset seem to be demanding a right of exclusivity that I find unreasonable.
- edbob 6y ago
  That is a bit "unfair", although not in a deliberate way. Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? That serves the purpose of inclusion well enough. If someone objects to saying "Happy Hannukah" at all, then just ignore them I guess? That seems to be the status quo already. I don't really care about placing blame. My objections are often because I don't feel that liberal ideas actually achieve what they claim to be for. I'm often for the stated ideal, but against the implementation. In this case I feel that the implementation is not very inclusive but does seem exclusive, and it could be done a lot better.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    > Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? Hanukkah is an 8-day festival, not a 1-day holiday. Which day do you propose to be the "correct" one and what gives you the right to make that decision? Sometimes Christmas falls during Hanukkah; would it be okay to say Happy Hanukkah on Christmas? I don't celebrate holidays. I play along for friend & family gatherings. I'm frequently told "Merry Christmas" several days in advance, and several days following, December 25. I hear Christmas music for an entire month leading up to the day, and frequently for weeks afterwards. Why should "happy Hanukkah" be limited to a single day?
    - edbob 6y ago
      The stated aim was to be inclusive and give people 'something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"'. A way to be inclusive without coming off like you hate American culture. I don't really care if "Merry Christmas" has just one day and "Happy Hanukkah" has 8. I'm fine either way. It just seems more likely to get broader acceptance if each group is allotted equal time. A compromise of sorts.
      - kaitai 6y ago
        Ohoh!! Here's the money quote: "American culture". How is American culture relevant here? I thought we were talking about a religious holiday (Christmas), and that if the religion is sincere then you're trying to lead people by your witness to find Christ, beyond nationality and even culture. Christmas as such is simply a symbol, rather than an aim in itself. It seems as if you're operating from an axiom that many other discussants do not agree on. No wonder the conversation seems like it's folks talking past each other.
        kaitai 6y ago
        You know, I'm back, because the more I think about this, the more it bugs me. You compare Christmas to Halloween and Thanksgiving, which are in the US secular holidays. The most common argument I've heard for wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" is that many people celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. That's fine for anyone who does so, but it's not a correct assumption in general. I celebrate Christmas because it is one of a set of holidays that tells the story of Christ's birth, and it's an important part of the liturgical calendar. I do not want Christmas to be secularized. I know I do not share my approach to Christmas with random coworkers, and in particular with non-Christians, and I do not want to pretend I do. It's a religious holiday for me and it irks me to treat it otherwise. So it seems like you're trying to cheapen or appropriate my religious observance to be a cultural marker instead, a marker of "being American". But the colonies were established in large part by religious dissenters, including in particular Puritans, who were highly critical of the secular Christmas. So you betray the roots of the American nation in forcing secular observance of Christmas on people. Having abandoned both American ideals of religious liberty and Christian ideals of sincere and sober religious observance of the birth of Christ, what, exactly, are you left with?

by edbob 6y ago

majormajor 6y ago

Maybe I'm cynical about the folks I grew up with, but I think if people got wished Merry Christmas by their barista on just 1 day, but Happy Hanukkah for 8 days, we'd suddenly see a lot more complaints about the War on Christmas... ;) I've been immersed in both sides of this for different large parts of my life, but I find it hard to place the blame on both sides. The Christians who get upset seem to be demanding a right of exclusivity that I find unreasonable.

edbob 6y ago
That is a bit "unfair", although not in a deliberate way. Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? That serves the purpose of inclusion well enough. If someone objects to saying "Happy Hannukah" at all, then just ignore them I guess? That seems to be the status quo already. I don't really care about placing blame. My objections are often because I don't feel that liberal ideas actually achieve what they claim to be for. I'm often for the stated ideal, but against the implementation. In this case I feel that the implementation is not very inclusive but does seem exclusive, and it could be done a lot better.
- klyrs 6y ago
  > Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? Hanukkah is an 8-day festival, not a 1-day holiday. Which day do you propose to be the "correct" one and what gives you the right to make that decision? Sometimes Christmas falls during Hanukkah; would it be okay to say Happy Hanukkah on Christmas? I don't celebrate holidays. I play along for friend & family gatherings. I'm frequently told "Merry Christmas" several days in advance, and several days following, December 25. I hear Christmas music for an entire month leading up to the day, and frequently for weeks afterwards. Why should "happy Hanukkah" be limited to a single day?
  - edbob 6y ago
    The stated aim was to be inclusive and give people 'something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"'. A way to be inclusive without coming off like you hate American culture. I don't really care if "Merry Christmas" has just one day and "Happy Hanukkah" has 8. I'm fine either way. It just seems more likely to get broader acceptance if each group is allotted equal time. A compromise of sorts.
    - kaitai 6y ago
      Ohoh!! Here's the money quote: "American culture". How is American culture relevant here? I thought we were talking about a religious holiday (Christmas), and that if the religion is sincere then you're trying to lead people by your witness to find Christ, beyond nationality and even culture. Christmas as such is simply a symbol, rather than an aim in itself. It seems as if you're operating from an axiom that many other discussants do not agree on. No wonder the conversation seems like it's folks talking past each other.
      - kaitai 6y ago
        You know, I'm back, because the more I think about this, the more it bugs me. You compare Christmas to Halloween and Thanksgiving, which are in the US secular holidays. The most common argument I've heard for wishing everyone "Merry Christmas" is that many people celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday. That's fine for anyone who does so, but it's not a correct assumption in general. I celebrate Christmas because it is one of a set of holidays that tells the story of Christ's birth, and it's an important part of the liturgical calendar. I do not want Christmas to be secularized. I know I do not share my approach to Christmas with random coworkers, and in particular with non-Christians, and I do not want to pretend I do. It's a religious holiday for me and it irks me to treat it otherwise. So it seems like you're trying to cheapen or appropriate my religious observance to be a cultural marker instead, a marker of "being American". But the colonies were established in large part by religious dissenters, including in particular Puritans, who were highly critical of the secular Christmas. So you betray the roots of the American nation in forcing secular observance of Christmas on people. Having abandoned both American ideals of religious liberty and Christian ideals of sincere and sober religious observance of the birth of Christ, what, exactly, are you left with?