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Thanks for the honest reply. Sorry for getting off-topic. I'm trying to understand liberal thought a bit better, hopefully without getting flamed out too much.

by edbob 6y ago

Thanks for the honest reply. Sorry for getting off-topic. I'm trying to understand liberal thought a bit better, hopefully without getting flamed out too much. I agree that the Starbucks choice of greeting is a "babiest of baby steps" which is probably why only one person really cared in a country of 300 million. But I really struggle to understand the justification here, and it seems to be related to other Culture War crusades. How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. That is, I can kind of believe that many liberals honestly see these things as "inclusive", but from the outside they actually seem "exclusive". The whole liberal platform is supposedly to tolerate and include, but in practice they seem to hate and exclude about 40% of the country. I just can't see very much of the tolerance and inclusion from my perspective. Sorry if I'm a bit all over the map, but I'm trying to understand, not debate.

majormajor 6y ago
> How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. If I'm Jewish in America, I'm used to people talking about Christmas, so I'm probably not gonna be offended by it anymore, but if someone said something to me about the right holiday I would probably appreciate it. Whether "happy holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" counts for much instead - since it's still no more personalized to me, especially when still wrapped in red and green - I can't really say myself, since I celebrate Christmas personally, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve the non-Christians who've told me they appreciate things like that. It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"
- edbob 6y ago
  > It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The holidays generally fall on different days. Why not say "Merry Christmas" on Dec 25 and say "Happy Hannukah" on the appropriate date(s), etc.? That would be more inclusive without appearing to snub anyone, and it would be interesting to hear about holidays you might not otherwise be aware of.
  - majormajor 6y ago
    Maybe I'm cynical about the folks I grew up with, but I think if people got wished Merry Christmas by their barista on just 1 day, but Happy Hanukkah for 8 days, we'd suddenly see a lot more complaints about the War on Christmas... ;) I've been immersed in both sides of this for different large parts of my life, but I find it hard to place the blame on both sides. The Christians who get upset seem to be demanding a right of exclusivity that I find unreasonable.
    - edbob 6y ago
      That is a bit "unfair", although not in a deliberate way. Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? That serves the purpose of inclusion well enough. If someone objects to saying "Happy Hannukah" at all, then just ignore them I guess? That seems to be the status quo already. I don't really care about placing blame. My objections are often because I don't feel that liberal ideas actually achieve what they claim to be for. I'm often for the stated ideal, but against the implementation. In this case I feel that the implementation is not very inclusive but does seem exclusive, and it could be done a lot better.
      - klyrs 6y ago
        > Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? Hanukkah is an 8-day festival, not a 1-day holiday. Which day do you propose to be the "correct" one and what gives you the right to make that decision? Sometimes Christmas falls during Hanukkah; would it be okay to say Happy Hanukkah on Christmas? I don't celebrate holidays. I play along for friend & family gatherings. I'm frequently told "Merry Christmas" several days in advance, and several days following, December 25. I hear Christmas music for an entire month leading up to the day, and frequently for weeks afterwards. Why should "happy Hanukkah" be limited to a single day?
        edbob 6y ago
        The stated aim was to be inclusive and give people 'something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"'. A way to be inclusive without coming off like you hate American culture. I don't really care if "Merry Christmas" has just one day and "Happy Hanukkah" has 8. I'm fine either way. It just seems more likely to get broader acceptance if each group is allotted equal time. A compromise of sorts.
camjohnson26 6y ago
Well that’s the problem with one version of tolerance that thinks that tolerance means minimizing our differences and avoiding anything that might offend another person. A better approach is embracing our cultural differences and trying to find ways that we compliment each other and work toward common goals, while respecting the goals we disagree on instead of demonizing the other side.
kaitai 6y ago
Do you say Happy Birthday to people when you know it's not their birthday? It's pretty much that simple. It's just good manners and common sense. As someone whose heritage comes from a fairly radical side of European Christianity, the overworship of Christmas itself is idolatry, so I have no sympathy from that point of view either.

by edbob 6y ago

majormajor 6y ago

> How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. If I'm Jewish in America, I'm used to people talking about Christmas, so I'm probably not gonna be offended by it anymore, but if someone said something to me about the right holiday I would probably appreciate it. Whether "happy holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" counts for much instead - since it's still no more personalized to me, especially when still wrapped in red and green - I can't really say myself, since I celebrate Christmas personally, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve the non-Christians who've told me they appreciate things like that. It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"

edbob 6y ago
> It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The holidays generally fall on different days. Why not say "Merry Christmas" on Dec 25 and say "Happy Hannukah" on the appropriate date(s), etc.? That would be more inclusive without appearing to snub anyone, and it would be interesting to hear about holidays you might not otherwise be aware of.
- majormajor 6y ago
  Maybe I'm cynical about the folks I grew up with, but I think if people got wished Merry Christmas by their barista on just 1 day, but Happy Hanukkah for 8 days, we'd suddenly see a lot more complaints about the War on Christmas... ;) I've been immersed in both sides of this for different large parts of my life, but I find it hard to place the blame on both sides. The Christians who get upset seem to be demanding a right of exclusivity that I find unreasonable.
  - edbob 6y ago
    That is a bit "unfair", although not in a deliberate way. Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? That serves the purpose of inclusion well enough. If someone objects to saying "Happy Hannukah" at all, then just ignore them I guess? That seems to be the status quo already. I don't really care about placing blame. My objections are often because I don't feel that liberal ideas actually achieve what they claim to be for. I'm often for the stated ideal, but against the implementation. In this case I feel that the implementation is not very inclusive but does seem exclusive, and it could be done a lot better.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      > Maybe just say "Happy Hannukah" on one particular day? Hanukkah is an 8-day festival, not a 1-day holiday. Which day do you propose to be the "correct" one and what gives you the right to make that decision? Sometimes Christmas falls during Hanukkah; would it be okay to say Happy Hanukkah on Christmas? I don't celebrate holidays. I play along for friend & family gatherings. I'm frequently told "Merry Christmas" several days in advance, and several days following, December 25. I hear Christmas music for an entire month leading up to the day, and frequently for weeks afterwards. Why should "happy Hanukkah" be limited to a single day?
      - edbob 6y ago
        The stated aim was to be inclusive and give people 'something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"'. A way to be inclusive without coming off like you hate American culture. I don't really care if "Merry Christmas" has just one day and "Happy Hanukkah" has 8. I'm fine either way. It just seems more likely to get broader acceptance if each group is allotted equal time. A compromise of sorts.

camjohnson26 6y ago

Well that’s the problem with one version of tolerance that thinks that tolerance means minimizing our differences and avoiding anything that might offend another person. A better approach is embracing our cultural differences and trying to find ways that we compliment each other and work toward common goals, while respecting the goals we disagree on instead of demonizing the other side.

kaitai 6y ago

Do you say Happy Birthday to people when you know it's not their birthday? It's pretty much that simple. It's just good manners and common sense. As someone whose heritage comes from a fairly radical side of European Christianity, the overworship of Christmas itself is idolatry, so I have no sympathy from that point of view either.