6 ms·

We're moving on quite a bit from the original post here, which was claiming that there was an overreaction to a position that supposedly didn't actually exist o

We're moving on quite a bit from the original post here, which was claiming that there was an overreaction to a position that supposedly didn't actually exist outside of this one person. I think it's pretty clear that that position does exist, which your post lines up with ;). However, I think something significant to note here about if it's an overreaction or not is that even these cups are still traditional Christmas colors. We're a really long way away from them saying something like "it's not a holiday season at all," or "the actual holidays are some other time." So if on one side we have a "let's be a little more inclusive of our friends celebrating different holidays" and on the other side we have "let's replace your holidays to help encourage a future violent revolution" it seems to me that they've only taken the babiest of baby steps towards the former, not the latter. (One wonders what the reaction would be if they came out with Hanukkah colored cups - lets not forget that there are non-"replacement"-motivated other holidays out there...)

throwaway894345 6y ago
There’s a difference between being concerned about a little cultural erasure and the idea that Christians en masse would choose Starbucks as the hill to die on over that issue. Of course, this is a lot more believable nowadays since we deal exclusively in caricatures but as I said earlier, it was novel at the time.
- majormajor 6y ago
  I knew Christians in the 90s boycotting Proctor and Gamble products because they were supposedly Satanic. (The company eventually won a lawsuit about this https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-satan.4966053.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20... ) So, no, none of this was novel to me in 2015... you seem to be reading in the "en masse" part yourself. A substantial number of people believe in this War on Christmas stuff and do let it influence their behavior, including the 2015 cups. You seem to only be willing to accept that it's either just 1 person, or EVERYBODY. I can show you more links if you want, but so far you're not even trying to consider the counter-evidence people have posted here... if you were actually curious, it's easy to Google. But - ironically, considering the claims of your original post - your mind seems made up.
edbob 6y ago
Thanks for the honest reply. Sorry for getting off-topic. I'm trying to understand liberal thought a bit better, hopefully without getting flamed out too much. I agree that the Starbucks choice of greeting is a "babiest of baby steps" which is probably why only one person really cared in a country of 300 million. But I really struggle to understand the justification here, and it seems to be related to other Culture War crusades. How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. That is, I can kind of believe that many liberals honestly see these things as "inclusive", but from the outside they actually seem "exclusive". The whole liberal platform is supposedly to tolerate and include, but in practice they seem to hate and exclude about 40% of the country. I just can't see very much of the tolerance and inclusion from my perspective. Sorry if I'm a bit all over the map, but I'm trying to understand, not debate.
- majormajor 6y ago
  > How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. If I'm Jewish in America, I'm used to people talking about Christmas, so I'm probably not gonna be offended by it anymore, but if someone said something to me about the right holiday I would probably appreciate it. Whether "happy holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" counts for much instead - since it's still no more personalized to me, especially when still wrapped in red and green - I can't really say myself, since I celebrate Christmas personally, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve the non-Christians who've told me they appreciate things like that. It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"
  - edbob 6y ago
    > It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The holidays generally fall on different days. Why not say "Merry Christmas" on Dec 25 and say "Happy Hannukah" on the appropriate date(s), etc.? That would be more inclusive without appearing to snub anyone, and it would be interesting to hear about holidays you might not otherwise be aware of.

throwaway894345 6y ago

There’s a difference between being concerned about a little cultural erasure and the idea that Christians en masse would choose Starbucks as the hill to die on over that issue. Of course, this is a lot more believable nowadays since we deal exclusively in caricatures but as I said earlier, it was novel at the time.

majormajor 6y ago
I knew Christians in the 90s boycotting Proctor and Gamble products because they were supposedly Satanic. (The company eventually won a lawsuit about this https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20iht-satan.4966053.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20... ) So, no, none of this was novel to me in 2015... you seem to be reading in the "en masse" part yourself. A substantial number of people believe in this War on Christmas stuff and do let it influence their behavior, including the 2015 cups. You seem to only be willing to accept that it's either just 1 person, or EVERYBODY. I can show you more links if you want, but so far you're not even trying to consider the counter-evidence people have posted here... if you were actually curious, it's easy to Google. But - ironically, considering the claims of your original post - your mind seems made up.

edbob 6y ago

Thanks for the honest reply. Sorry for getting off-topic. I'm trying to understand liberal thought a bit better, hopefully without getting flamed out too much. I agree that the Starbucks choice of greeting is a "babiest of baby steps" which is probably why only one person really cared in a country of 300 million. But I really struggle to understand the justification here, and it seems to be related to other Culture War crusades. How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. That is, I can kind of believe that many liberals honestly see these things as "inclusive", but from the outside they actually seem "exclusive". The whole liberal platform is supposedly to tolerate and include, but in practice they seem to hate and exclude about 40% of the country. I just can't see very much of the tolerance and inclusion from my perspective. Sorry if I'm a bit all over the map, but I'm trying to understand, not debate.

majormajor 6y ago
> How is avoiding Christmas inclusive? Everyone knows what country we're in and that most people celebrate Christmas, so why would anybody be offended by saying "Merry Christmas"? This matters because if you don't see it as an "inclusive" move, then it just comes off as a way to snub people who do celebrate Christmas. If I'm Jewish in America, I'm used to people talking about Christmas, so I'm probably not gonna be offended by it anymore, but if someone said something to me about the right holiday I would probably appreciate it. Whether "happy holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" counts for much instead - since it's still no more personalized to me, especially when still wrapped in red and green - I can't really say myself, since I celebrate Christmas personally, but I don't have any reason to disbelieve the non-Christians who've told me they appreciate things like that. It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!"
- edbob 6y ago
  > It's something to say "hey, we realize that you exist!" It seems like there should be a way to do that without feeding into the whole Culture War thing. The holidays generally fall on different days. Why not say "Merry Christmas" on Dec 25 and say "Happy Hannukah" on the appropriate date(s), etc.? That would be more inclusive without appearing to snub anyone, and it would be interesting to hear about holidays you might not otherwise be aware of.