14 ms·

Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously i

Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. The fact that they were common half a millennium ago when the ecosystem was very different doesn't seem particularly relevant. So if this is just for tourism and/or as a vanity project and there are no solid ecological or scientific reasons, I'm not seeing a convincing justification for this.

Pet_Ant 6y ago
Maybe it's a vital step to restoring the ecosystem back to closer to what it was half a millennium ago?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hashtagjohnt 6y ago
  But what is the value in restoring that ecosystem? I am not saying that is a bad thing (it is probably a good thing), I am just curious what the argument for restoration is here.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    There has been many articles written about the success of reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone National Park. I am curious to know what the rationale for lynx in Scotland is, but I imagine the expected outcomes are in line with those observed in Yellowstone. > Wolves are causing a trophic cascade of ecological change, including helping to increase beaver populations and bring back aspen, and vegetation. https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...
  - Pet_Ant 6y ago
    That’s funny because to me it seems obvious: to restore the world to a state less effected by humankind. I guess you’ve made me question where that value comes from...
justin66 6y ago
> They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. Are you certain on that last point? https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/20/deer-cull-dilemma-scottish-highlands https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/20/deer-cull-dilem... I don't know that much about the lynx but it seems like it might be a useful ideal predator to release to help deal with deer overpopulation. They don't prey on people.
- almog 6y ago
  On that note, what does aggressive even mean as an adjective to a predator?
  - hetspookjee 6y ago
    Haha, good question, but to answer: you can have black mamba aggresive, and black bear friendly. Both are fearsome predators but you can definitely say that a black mamba is way more aggresive. Unrelated, but after googling I also found capybaras to be the most friendly animals.
theptip 6y ago
> and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. If you've visited Scotland's countryside, you might have noticed the sweeping vistas of grassy green fields, yellow bushy marshes, and purple heather -- and a conspicuous absence of any trees. It's a very unnatural landscape, historically speaking. Scotland (along with the rest of the UK) cut down most of their old growth forests in the industrial revolution, and also eliminated all of the large predators. As a result, the wild deer population is out of control, and even with management (read: stalking wild deer) there are so many deer that it's impossible to simply plant trees and have them reforest; deer will eat and destroy the saplings before they can mature. This arrests the natural reforestation that would occur over time, and makes even managed projects expensive -- for example here's a charity that is working on reforesting a plot of land in Scotland: https://bordersforesttrust.org/places/wild-heart/carrifran-wildwood/ https://bordersforesttrust.org/places/wild-heart/carrifran-w.... They had to hire someone to kill deer on their land to protect the new trees, even after expensive plastic casings. That's a long-winded bit of context, but the summarized argument for re-introducing large predators is that they would help to control the damaging and out-of-balance wild deer population, reducing the amount of human intervention required, and allowing the countryside to revert back to its natural forested state.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Deer, and rabbits. Lynx are designed to eat rabbits.
  - pacaro 6y ago
    Lynx are native to Scotland, I don't believe that rabbits are, they are usually considered to have been introduced by the Normans in the 12th century. According to the wikipedia article the lynx appears to have a pretty varied diet
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      In the case of eurasian lynx replace 'rabbit' by 'hare' and you got it. They eat also a lot of roe deer and maybe a few (very young) red deer.
mabbo 6y ago
> they are aggressive predators, Got a source on that? Having grown up in a rural area where lynx are native... I've seen one, one time, in my entire life (in the wild). They are invisible. They stay away from people. "Aggressive" is the wrong word.
- kimi 6y ago
  Definitely. They are rather scary - not a big cat, but a small lion that jumps like crazy - but totally invisible. Only chances of "meeting" one is ending up in a cave where a female keeps her cubs.
pvaldes 6y ago
> They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them Three falses in a row. First, Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Moreover, Spanish lynx is still one of the most critically endangered mammals in the planet Aggressive is relative. IMHO, a pack of wild dogs pursuing a zebra for a couple of miles (before to eat it in chunks while alive) is aggressive. Lynx are ambush predators that avoid humans. UK ecology has several problems. One of this is the fever of introducing exotic game species and specially deer. Apart of roe and red are: fallow deer, chinese water deer, asian muntjac and japanese deer. All introduced by hunters. Their populations are increasing and trying to pack as many plant eaters as possible in absence of predators is a very bad idea. To add pressure to the unfortunate trees of Scotland there are also rabbits and zillions of cattle. This is blocking the regeneration of forests, keeping many areas deforested and eroded and severely reducing the populations of many bird species. Must be also noted that deer can be also dangerous for humans and can (and will) stab dogs but, for some reason, pet safety was not seen as a problem in that case. > This is just for tourism Great then, a powerful reason to do it and a win-win for the local people. If hunters were allowed for decades the right to release as many alien species that they liked, it seems a little hypocritical to criticize hotel owners or wildlife photographers for wanting to release native animals that they like also. Either everybody can do it or nobody should do it. All citizens having the same rights and duties is in the basis of a modern society Diversification of economy is always the safest and smartest move. Not everybody must be a farmer.
- peteretep 6y ago
  What the actual... > Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Eurasian Lynx is listed as “Least Concern”. That there aren’t any in Scotland has no bearing on this. This is a bewildering comment. > Aggressive is relative ... some crap about zebras It will be _the_ apex predator in the UK. It can bring down a deer. Wild comparisons to Africa and pack animals are bizarre when taking about introducing a new apex predator to a country that hasn’t had a predator of its size or power in centuries. > some shit about deer If deer are truly a problem, it turns out they’re pretty easy to shoot, some people enjoy it, and there’s money to be made from dead deer. You could introduce a new disruptive predator, sure. You could also poison the water source, but it’s also a freakin’ terrible solution to a problem with a much simpler solution.
nix23 6y ago
>and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them Restoring nature to it's former self. No one would need Human Hunters if the Nature is still intact and balances itself, and sometimes Human Hunters cannot balance Nature from lets say from a mice-plague, so you have to kill them with toxic, some of them are still eaten by Owl/Eagle/Fox and are poisoned too, less Owls for the next year(s) means even more mice, so you need more toxins and the circle repeats. Lynx Fox Wolf and Bear balance the nature and also balance each other. There are many more points why a intact nature is also better for Humans, but the Mouse sample should be enough.

Pet_Ant 6y ago

Maybe it's a vital step to restoring the ecosystem back to closer to what it was half a millennium ago?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hashtagjohnt 6y ago
But what is the value in restoring that ecosystem? I am not saying that is a bad thing (it is probably a good thing), I am just curious what the argument for restoration is here.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  There has been many articles written about the success of reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone National Park. I am curious to know what the rationale for lynx in Scotland is, but I imagine the expected outcomes are in line with those observed in Yellowstone. > Wolves are causing a trophic cascade of ecological change, including helping to increase beaver populations and bring back aspen, and vegetation. https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...
- Pet_Ant 6y ago
  That’s funny because to me it seems obvious: to restore the world to a state less effected by humankind. I guess you’ve made me question where that value comes from...

justin66 6y ago

> They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. Are you certain on that last point? https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/20/deer-cull-dilemma-scottish-highlands https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/feb/20/deer-cull-dilem... I don't know that much about the lynx but it seems like it might be a useful ideal predator to release to help deal with deer overpopulation. They don't prey on people.

almog 6y ago
On that note, what does aggressive even mean as an adjective to a predator?
- hetspookjee 6y ago
  Haha, good question, but to answer: you can have black mamba aggresive, and black bear friendly. Both are fearsome predators but you can definitely say that a black mamba is way more aggresive. Unrelated, but after googling I also found capybaras to be the most friendly animals.

theptip 6y ago

> and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. If you've visited Scotland's countryside, you might have noticed the sweeping vistas of grassy green fields, yellow bushy marshes, and purple heather -- and a conspicuous absence of any trees. It's a very unnatural landscape, historically speaking. Scotland (along with the rest of the UK) cut down most of their old growth forests in the industrial revolution, and also eliminated all of the large predators. As a result, the wild deer population is out of control, and even with management (read: stalking wild deer) there are so many deer that it's impossible to simply plant trees and have them reforest; deer will eat and destroy the saplings before they can mature. This arrests the natural reforestation that would occur over time, and makes even managed projects expensive -- for example here's a charity that is working on reforesting a plot of land in Scotland: https://bordersforesttrust.org/places/wild-heart/carrifran-wildwood/ https://bordersforesttrust.org/places/wild-heart/carrifran-w.... They had to hire someone to kill deer on their land to protect the new trees, even after expensive plastic casings. That's a long-winded bit of context, but the summarized argument for re-introducing large predators is that they would help to control the damaging and out-of-balance wild deer population, reducing the amount of human intervention required, and allowing the countryside to revert back to its natural forested state.

sandworm101 6y ago
Deer, and rabbits. Lynx are designed to eat rabbits.
- pacaro 6y ago
  Lynx are native to Scotland, I don't believe that rabbits are, they are usually considered to have been introduced by the Normans in the 12th century. According to the wikipedia article the lynx appears to have a pretty varied diet
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    In the case of eurasian lynx replace 'rabbit' by 'hare' and you got it. They eat also a lot of roe deer and maybe a few (very young) red deer.

mabbo 6y ago

> they are aggressive predators, Got a source on that? Having grown up in a rural area where lynx are native... I've seen one, one time, in my entire life (in the wild). They are invisible. They stay away from people. "Aggressive" is the wrong word.

kimi 6y ago
Definitely. They are rather scary - not a big cat, but a small lion that jumps like crazy - but totally invisible. Only chances of "meeting" one is ending up in a cave where a female keeps her cubs.

pvaldes 6y ago

> They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them Three falses in a row. First, Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Moreover, Spanish lynx is still one of the most critically endangered mammals in the planet Aggressive is relative. IMHO, a pack of wild dogs pursuing a zebra for a couple of miles (before to eat it in chunks while alive) is aggressive. Lynx are ambush predators that avoid humans. UK ecology has several problems. One of this is the fever of introducing exotic game species and specially deer. Apart of roe and red are: fallow deer, chinese water deer, asian muntjac and japanese deer. All introduced by hunters. Their populations are increasing and trying to pack as many plant eaters as possible in absence of predators is a very bad idea. To add pressure to the unfortunate trees of Scotland there are also rabbits and zillions of cattle. This is blocking the regeneration of forests, keeping many areas deforested and eroded and severely reducing the populations of many bird species. Must be also noted that deer can be also dangerous for humans and can (and will) stab dogs but, for some reason, pet safety was not seen as a problem in that case. > This is just for tourism Great then, a powerful reason to do it and a win-win for the local people. If hunters were allowed for decades the right to release as many alien species that they liked, it seems a little hypocritical to criticize hotel owners or wildlife photographers for wanting to release native animals that they like also. Either everybody can do it or nobody should do it. All citizens having the same rights and duties is in the basis of a modern society Diversification of economy is always the safest and smartest move. Not everybody must be a farmer.

peteretep 6y ago
What the actual... > Eurasian Lynx is so endangered in UK that is in fact locally extinct. You can't be more endangered than that. Eurasian Lynx is listed as “Least Concern”. That there aren’t any in Scotland has no bearing on this. This is a bewildering comment. > Aggressive is relative ... some crap about zebras It will be _the_ apex predator in the UK. It can bring down a deer. Wild comparisons to Africa and pack animals are bizarre when taking about introducing a new apex predator to a country that hasn’t had a predator of its size or power in centuries. > some shit about deer If deer are truly a problem, it turns out they’re pretty easy to shoot, some people enjoy it, and there’s money to be made from dead deer. You could introduce a new disruptive predator, sure. You could also poison the water source, but it’s also a freakin’ terrible solution to a problem with a much simpler solution.

nix23 6y ago

>and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them Restoring nature to it's former self. No one would need Human Hunters if the Nature is still intact and balances itself, and sometimes Human Hunters cannot balance Nature from lets say from a mice-plague, so you have to kill them with toxic, some of them are still eaten by Owl/Eagle/Fox and are poisoned too, less Owls for the next year(s) means even more mice, so you need more toxins and the circle repeats. Lynx Fox Wolf and Bear balance the nature and also balance each other. There are many more points why a intact nature is also better for Humans, but the Mouse sample should be enough.