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> But then I realized how much I struggled to get my Android UI the way I wanted, until I installed Nova Launcher that gave me Linux-levels of tweaking. The ave

by sildur 6y ago

> But then I realized how much I struggled to get my Android UI the way I wanted, until I installed Nova Launcher that gave me Linux-levels of tweaking. The average user does not do this. No. Stop, please stop with the paternalism. I cringe every time someone talks about "the user" in third person, like they were laboratory specimens. We all are mostly average users. There is not really any difference between your father and you. My mother wants to play with things like everyone else. But we, the developers, don't allow them, and we put them into walled gardens without ever giving them a choice. Because we are smarter and we known better, and we are doing it for their own good. Apparently. And all of this reeks of paternalism and elitism. The silver lining will be when all those developers receive the same treatment in 30 years. Sadly, it will be too late by then.

fouric 6y ago
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. > We all are mostly average users. If by "we" you mean the population of HN - that is blatantly false. The average HN user is far more technically sophisticated than the average computer/phone user. >> The average user does not do this. This is completely true, and not "paternalistic" in the least - it's a statement of fact. > There is not really any difference between your father and you. Absolutely false. My father, as do most of the fathers I know, are profoundly disinterested in customization and learning more about their devices - even after I show them some of the stuff that they could do, and offer to teach them. It's simply not interesting to them - they want to do workworking, or something. > My mother wants to play with things like everyone else. Then your mother is different than most peoples' - including mine. My mother does not want to play with her phone - she wants to use it to get something done, whether that be talking with her friends or watching a video. This also describes my father, and the parents of the majority of people I know. Now, sure, most humans want to "play with things" in the general case. However, that does not extend to every kind of object (e.g. car, gun, workbench, computer, house) for every person, and what's more there is a tremendous amount of variability in the drive that each person has to customize each of those things. The fact that your mother might passingly be interested in changing the wallpaper of her phone does not in any way make her comparable to the /r/unixporn poster who has spent literally hundreds of hours on a single visual theme. > But we, the developers, don't allow them, and we put them into walled gardens without ever giving them a choice. Because we are smarter and we known better, and we are doing it for their own good. That's what the post is arguing against. You seem to be under the impression that separating "users" and "developers" implies taking control away from the former - which is false. Users are different than you - and you should give them power.
- sildur 6y ago
  > If by "we" you mean the population of HN - that is blatantly false. The average HN user is far more technically sophisticated than the average computer/phone user. Elitism, again. > This is completely true, and not "paternalistic" in the least - it's a statement of fact. Backed by nothing. > Absolutely false. My father, as do most of the fathers I know, are profoundly disinterested in customization and learning more about their devices - even after I show them some of the stuff that they could do, and offer to teach them. It's simply not interesting to them - they want to do workworking, or something. They want to do workworking or something... Honestly, that sounds quite dismissive. Hopefully your teaching offer was slightly more humble than that...
  - fouric 6y ago
    > Elitism, again. This is not elitism - this is a statement of fact. You should know the definitions of words before you use them: "The belief that certain persons or members of certain groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their superiority, as in intelligence, social standing, or wealth." and "Behavior arising from or indicative of such a belief." ...neither of which describes the statement that I made. (in case it's not clear - even if my statement were false, it would still not be elitism) > Backed by nothing. It's pretty clear that HN users are way more tech-savvy than the average user - don't try to deny it. If you absolutely insist on evidence - take five random posts from the front page of HN, show the original content to a random sampling of people you meet at the library or at a coffeeshop (your family members and friends could be biased technically), ask them to make comments, and then compare to the HN comments on the post. Only the very tiniest fraction of users are going to write anything like [1][2][3] - those are developers, and their knowledge, skills, and behaviors are dramatically different than the average user. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25883791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25883791 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25881911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25881911 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25885196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25885196
- sildur 6y ago
  > That's what the post is arguing against. You seem to be under the impression that separating "users" and "developers" implies taking control away from the former - which is false. Users are different than you - and you should give them power. False, but it happens. And I don't like it. I feel like we are making a mistake here (a mistake older than time) by separating users between "technical" and "average", and "protecting" the average, "for their own good". These "average" users don't exist, we are creating them by keeping them digitally illiterate "for their own good". As I said, this theme is older than time.

by sildur 6y ago

fouric 6y ago

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. > We all are mostly average users. If by "we" you mean the population of HN - that is blatantly false. The average HN user is far more technically sophisticated than the average computer/phone user. >> The average user does not do this. This is completely true, and not "paternalistic" in the least - it's a statement of fact. > There is not really any difference between your father and you. Absolutely false. My father, as do most of the fathers I know, are profoundly disinterested in customization and learning more about their devices - even after I show them some of the stuff that they could do, and offer to teach them. It's simply not interesting to them - they want to do workworking, or something. > My mother wants to play with things like everyone else. Then your mother is different than most peoples' - including mine. My mother does not want to play with her phone - she wants to use it to get something done, whether that be talking with her friends or watching a video. This also describes my father, and the parents of the majority of people I know. Now, sure, most humans want to "play with things" in the general case. However, that does not extend to every kind of object (e.g. car, gun, workbench, computer, house) for every person, and what's more there is a tremendous amount of variability in the drive that each person has to customize each of those things. The fact that your mother might passingly be interested in changing the wallpaper of her phone does not in any way make her comparable to the /r/unixporn poster who has spent literally hundreds of hours on a single visual theme. > But we, the developers, don't allow them, and we put them into walled gardens without ever giving them a choice. Because we are smarter and we known better, and we are doing it for their own good. That's what the post is arguing against. You seem to be under the impression that separating "users" and "developers" implies taking control away from the former - which is false. Users are different than you - and you should give them power.

sildur 6y ago
> If by "we" you mean the population of HN - that is blatantly false. The average HN user is far more technically sophisticated than the average computer/phone user. Elitism, again. > This is completely true, and not "paternalistic" in the least - it's a statement of fact. Backed by nothing. > Absolutely false. My father, as do most of the fathers I know, are profoundly disinterested in customization and learning more about their devices - even after I show them some of the stuff that they could do, and offer to teach them. It's simply not interesting to them - they want to do workworking, or something. They want to do workworking or something... Honestly, that sounds quite dismissive. Hopefully your teaching offer was slightly more humble than that...
- fouric 6y ago
  > Elitism, again. This is not elitism - this is a statement of fact. You should know the definitions of words before you use them: "The belief that certain persons or members of certain groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their superiority, as in intelligence, social standing, or wealth." and "Behavior arising from or indicative of such a belief." ...neither of which describes the statement that I made. (in case it's not clear - even if my statement were false, it would still not be elitism) > Backed by nothing. It's pretty clear that HN users are way more tech-savvy than the average user - don't try to deny it. If you absolutely insist on evidence - take five random posts from the front page of HN, show the original content to a random sampling of people you meet at the library or at a coffeeshop (your family members and friends could be biased technically), ask them to make comments, and then compare to the HN comments on the post. Only the very tiniest fraction of users are going to write anything like [1][2][3] - those are developers, and their knowledge, skills, and behaviors are dramatically different than the average user. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25883791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25883791 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25881911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25881911 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25885196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25885196
sildur 6y ago
> That's what the post is arguing against. You seem to be under the impression that separating "users" and "developers" implies taking control away from the former - which is false. Users are different than you - and you should give them power. False, but it happens. And I don't like it. I feel like we are making a mistake here (a mistake older than time) by separating users between "technical" and "average", and "protecting" the average, "for their own good". These "average" users don't exist, we are creating them by keeping them digitally illiterate "for their own good". As I said, this theme is older than time.