5 ms·

I'd be excited to see arm competition in the desktop space but I don't believe there are any arm chips that compete in performance to high end x86. Arm can do l

I'd be excited to see arm competition in the desktop space but I don't believe there are any arm chips that compete in performance to high end x86. Arm can do lots of cores which is very good for servers, but single threading performance is still a significant necessity on user end hardware. The M1 is great because it's low power with optimized performance, but on a desktop you can have well over 500W+ and that's normal. I don't see anyone else making only mobile arm chips for laptops other than trying to be like a Windows Chromebook. The software compatability will be a nightmare.

zaptrem 6y ago
M1 cores outperform Comet Lake cores and are basically tied with AMD Vermeer despite using a fraction of the power.
- stefan_ 6y ago
  They are also on a different process shrug
  - unix_fan 6y ago
    Process node improvements don’ty bring that much performance.
    - stefan_ 6y ago
      Given the massive drop in power consumption and therefore heat, they seem to bring inordinate amounts of performance in a mobile chip.
      - unix_fan 6y ago
        The apple a14 brought no improvements over the last generation despite being on a superior process node.
    - floatboth 6y ago
      Even evolution within the same process node can bring noticeable performance improvements. Launch day AMD Zen 2 (TSMC 7FF) chips could barely clock to 4.2GHz, ones manufactured months later can often do 4.4.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    So they are competitive, because they are a node ahead?
    - coolspot 6y ago
      5nm, they are two nodes ahead compared to Intel’s 10nm
    - GeekyBear 6y ago
      When you shrink nodes you can either increase performance, cut power, or go with some mix of the two. TSMC's 5nm is 30% more power efficient OR 15% faster than their 7nm process. Apple took the power reduction. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16088/apple-announces-5nm-a14-soc-meagre-upgrades-or-less-power-hungry https://www.anandtech.com/show/16088/apple-announces-5nm-a14...
- monkmartinez 6y ago
  Who cares if you have the darn thing plugged in anyway? Does the M1 outperform the Threadripper 3990x?
  - astrange 6y ago
    Personally I like the noise level in my room being 32 dB and don't like PCs having to run the fan at full speed to show the desktop picture.
    - monkmartinez 6y ago
      That is fine and I get it. Just realize there are lots of people that need/want more power, variety, compatibility with a lower cost. Water cooling is plug and play these days for desktop rigs. The gaming laptop market has become shockingly good for professional level CAD/Engineering apps with the industry focused on drastically reducing noise levels (albeit still quite loud in comparison to fanless). Trade offs... trade offs as far as you can see...
    - floatboth 6y ago
      Any desktop PC, even with the beefiest Threadripper, won't run the fan at full speed when you're just browsing the web or watching videos. Heck, if you're not squeezing the absolute maximum performance from a chip by overclocking (I am :P) you can run a 5950X on a regular tower cooler with the fan curve never coming close to 100% and it will still be incredibly fast.
  - singhrac 6y ago
    I think it's a moot question, since they're not comparable here. Laptops have inherent thermal limitations (not just power) that don't allow something like the Threadripper to be workable. If you wanted a fair comparison you'd wait to see what processor Apple puts in their Mac Pro in 2-3 years, and compare that to whatever is the Threadripper equivalent then.
  - jrockway 6y ago
    I think to understand the M1, you have to be a Mac laptop user. For years, Mac laptop performance lagged years behind high-end desktop performance -- they have been stuck on 14nm+ process chips with a mobile power budget, while desktop users have had 7nm chips that can draw 500W with no trouble. As a result, what M1 users tell you is fast is what PC desktop users have had for ages. A Threadripper and 3090 will blow the M1 out of the water in raw performance (but use a kilowatt while doing it, which a laptop obviously can't do). At my last job, they issued us 2012-era Macbooks. I eventually got so frustrated with the performance that I went out and bought everyone on my team an 8th generation NUC. It was night and day. I couldn't believe how much faster everything was. The M1 is a similar revelation for people that have stayed inside the Mac ecosystem all these years.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tyingq 6y ago
I do think that's a relevant point for desktops. The M1 is incredible, but if you don't care about TDP, desktop can catch up fairly quickly for either Intel or AMD. I don't see an obvious player currently working on a "broad market" high performance ARM chip for the commodity desktop.
wlesieutre 6y ago
> I don't see anyone else making only mobile arm chips for laptops other than trying to be like a Windows Chromebook. The software compatability will be a nightmare. I'd expect Microsoft to make a run at this with their Surface line. They've been trying to make ARM tablets for a years (see Windows RT), and they just recently added the x86-64 compatibility layer so that it could be actually useful instead of "it's an iPad but worse". https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/12/10/introducing-x64-emulation-in-preview-for-windows-10-on-arm-pcs-to-the-windows-insider-program/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/12/10/introdu... Will it see any success with 3rd party developers probably not bothering to support ARM? Maybe for some people who spend most of their time in Edge, Mail, or Office. I have a hard time seeing it being as successful as Apple's change, since the messaging from Apple is "This is happening in 2 years, get on board or you'll be left behind" and the messaging from Microsoft is "Look, we made an ARM tablet, and will probably sell at least 10 of them."
mr_toad 6y ago
> but on a desktop you can have well over 500W+ and that's normal. You only see that on gaming rigs and high end workstations. The typical office machine or ma & pa PC is either a laptop or a mini-PC with mobile parts.

zaptrem 6y ago

M1 cores outperform Comet Lake cores and are basically tied with AMD Vermeer despite using a fraction of the power.

stefan_ 6y ago
They are also on a different process shrug
- unix_fan 6y ago
  Process node improvements don’ty bring that much performance.
  - stefan_ 6y ago
    Given the massive drop in power consumption and therefore heat, they seem to bring inordinate amounts of performance in a mobile chip.
    - unix_fan 6y ago
      The apple a14 brought no improvements over the last generation despite being on a superior process node.
  - floatboth 6y ago
    Even evolution within the same process node can bring noticeable performance improvements. Launch day AMD Zen 2 (TSMC 7FF) chips could barely clock to 4.2GHz, ones manufactured months later can often do 4.4.
- happymellon 6y ago
  So they are competitive, because they are a node ahead?
  - coolspot 6y ago
    5nm, they are two nodes ahead compared to Intel’s 10nm
  - GeekyBear 6y ago
    When you shrink nodes you can either increase performance, cut power, or go with some mix of the two. TSMC's 5nm is 30% more power efficient OR 15% faster than their 7nm process. Apple took the power reduction. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16088/apple-announces-5nm-a14-soc-meagre-upgrades-or-less-power-hungry https://www.anandtech.com/show/16088/apple-announces-5nm-a14...
monkmartinez 6y ago
Who cares if you have the darn thing plugged in anyway? Does the M1 outperform the Threadripper 3990x?
- astrange 6y ago
  Personally I like the noise level in my room being 32 dB and don't like PCs having to run the fan at full speed to show the desktop picture.
  - monkmartinez 6y ago
    That is fine and I get it. Just realize there are lots of people that need/want more power, variety, compatibility with a lower cost. Water cooling is plug and play these days for desktop rigs. The gaming laptop market has become shockingly good for professional level CAD/Engineering apps with the industry focused on drastically reducing noise levels (albeit still quite loud in comparison to fanless). Trade offs... trade offs as far as you can see...
  - floatboth 6y ago
    Any desktop PC, even with the beefiest Threadripper, won't run the fan at full speed when you're just browsing the web or watching videos. Heck, if you're not squeezing the absolute maximum performance from a chip by overclocking (I am :P) you can run a 5950X on a regular tower cooler with the fan curve never coming close to 100% and it will still be incredibly fast.
- singhrac 6y ago
  I think it's a moot question, since they're not comparable here. Laptops have inherent thermal limitations (not just power) that don't allow something like the Threadripper to be workable. If you wanted a fair comparison you'd wait to see what processor Apple puts in their Mac Pro in 2-3 years, and compare that to whatever is the Threadripper equivalent then.
- jrockway 6y ago
  I think to understand the M1, you have to be a Mac laptop user. For years, Mac laptop performance lagged years behind high-end desktop performance -- they have been stuck on 14nm+ process chips with a mobile power budget, while desktop users have had 7nm chips that can draw 500W with no trouble. As a result, what M1 users tell you is fast is what PC desktop users have had for ages. A Threadripper and 3090 will blow the M1 out of the water in raw performance (but use a kilowatt while doing it, which a laptop obviously can't do). At my last job, they issued us 2012-era Macbooks. I eventually got so frustrated with the performance that I went out and bought everyone on my team an 8th generation NUC. It was night and day. I couldn't believe how much faster everything was. The M1 is a similar revelation for people that have stayed inside the Mac ecosystem all these years.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tyingq 6y ago

I do think that's a relevant point for desktops. The M1 is incredible, but if you don't care about TDP, desktop can catch up fairly quickly for either Intel or AMD. I don't see an obvious player currently working on a "broad market" high performance ARM chip for the commodity desktop.

wlesieutre 6y ago

> I don't see anyone else making only mobile arm chips for laptops other than trying to be like a Windows Chromebook. The software compatability will be a nightmare. I'd expect Microsoft to make a run at this with their Surface line. They've been trying to make ARM tablets for a years (see Windows RT), and they just recently added the x86-64 compatibility layer so that it could be actually useful instead of "it's an iPad but worse". https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/12/10/introducing-x64-emulation-in-preview-for-windows-10-on-arm-pcs-to-the-windows-insider-program/ https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/12/10/introdu... Will it see any success with 3rd party developers probably not bothering to support ARM? Maybe for some people who spend most of their time in Edge, Mail, or Office. I have a hard time seeing it being as successful as Apple's change, since the messaging from Apple is "This is happening in 2 years, get on board or you'll be left behind" and the messaging from Microsoft is "Look, we made an ARM tablet, and will probably sell at least 10 of them."

mr_toad 6y ago

> but on a desktop you can have well over 500W+ and that's normal. You only see that on gaming rigs and high end workstations. The typical office machine or ma & pa PC is either a laptop or a mini-PC with mobile parts.