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So this is something I keep asking myself. The largest part of the savings comes from the fact that electricity is much cheaper compared to gasoline on a 100km

by brummm 6y ago

So this is something I keep asking myself. The largest part of the savings comes from the fact that electricity is much cheaper compared to gasoline on a 100km basis. Now, the reason gasoline is so expensive is the massive amount of taxes charged. However, those taxes directly fund the building and maintenance of the road infrastructure. Currently, EV owners essentially get to ride for free on that infrastructure since they aren't paying gasoline taxes. Consequently, with more and more people switching over, the amount of taxes available for road maintenace, etc. will decrease and the electricity for driving will have to be taxed much in the same way as gasoline is and thus eliminating the savings early adopters are currently enjoying.

durkie 6y ago
I think you're right that the road tax structure will have to change as we move away from ICE cars, but I think the likelihood of electricity becoming more expensive is every low. Electricity is too ubiquitous, and its price should fall tremendously in the coming years (new solar projects being quoted at 2c/kwh and falling in several parts of the world)
- brummm 6y ago
  I don't think electricity will increase in price, but electricity used for moving a car will be taxed much like gasoline currently is. So the electricity used at home will stay the same, but the one used in car battery chargers will be a multiple of the price of normal electricity.
radium3d 6y ago
I think you're missing the efficiency aspect. Gasoline carries a much larger amount of energy so having a far more energy efficient, say in my example 26mpg going to 130+mpg saves a lot in energy cost as well. We do not ride for free. We pay an extra ~$100 a year (formula based on cost of car. I think it should be based on the weight of the vehicle personally. My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car) for registration here in California which covers the road maintenance so no need to worry there.
- brummm 6y ago
  How does $100 even compare? Currently in California there is a 79.6 cent tax(18.4 federal + 61.2 state) on a gallon of gasoline (I googled and it came up with a price of $3.36 per gallon. That boils down to a ~24% tax on gasoline. So for spending $416 dollars on gas, you'd be paying $100 of tax. I don't think paying $100 is even remotely enough to make up for the missing revenue. Further, a fixed fee penalizes people that drive a lot exactly as much as people that barely drive whereas a tax on the consumed quantity, gas or electricity, takes into account how much a person is using the road infrastructure.
  - radium3d 6y ago
    Not all of the tax money on gasoline goes directly to road maintenance I would guess, it also goes to environmental cleanup projects I believe. Also, remember that EV's are not as heavy in all cases. My 3 SR+ weighs just 3627 lb Also note that here in CA if the car costs more the registration fee for the EV is more than $100 so I think that helps make up for the difference as well.
    - brummm 6y ago
      Fair enough. But that revenue would still be missing if everybody would switch to EV and it will have to be made up by taxing electricity used for charging car batteries. Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google.
      - cptskippy 6y ago
        > Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google. In terms of size, the Model 3 is closer aligned to a Camry than a Corolla. The Camry is ~3300-3600 lbs.
- Marsymars 6y ago
  > My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car. It absolutely does. The Honda Civic hatchback has 3. cubic feet more cargo room than the Tesla 3 with the seats down (including the frunk) and weighs 600 lb less.
ip26 6y ago
The federal fuel tax is 18 cents, not exactly massive. (Maybe you aren’t in the US though)
- parliament32 6y ago
  "Federal" try adding all your state/provincial, then local taxes. For me, in BC: Provincial motor fuel tax (Metro Vancouver) — 1.75 cents Provincial motor fuel tax (everywhere else in B.C.) — 7.75 cents. B.C.'s carbon tax — 8.89 cents. The B.C. Transportation Finance Authority tax — 6.75 cents. TransLink tax (If you live in Metro Vancouver) — 17 cents, increasing to 18.5 cents on July 1. Transit tax (If you live in Victoria) — 5.5 cents. Federal excise tax — 10 cents. Finally, pay the five per cent Goods and Services Tax on top of the total price. Adds up to 50% tax ish.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Most Europa pay something near $10 per gallon of gas. Does US taxing so little means their roads are half the cost?
    - parliament32 6y ago
      More people own cars in the US -> more gas purchased -> more total tax. Contrary to popular belief, the amount of cars driving over a road doesn't really contribute to how often it has to be repaved/repaired -- a road's wear is almost entirely based on its age. The more cars you have, the less fuel taxes will be to maintain the same amount of road surface. This means that when EVs become more popular, there'll be clever ways of taxing them too, whether it's an insurance surcharge or an up-front purchase tax or some sort of special "electricity for EVs" tax. This is the honeymoon period when they seem super cheap to drive, but that'll change as they replace fuel-powered cars and someone needs to pay for the roads/infra.
      - dzhiurgis 6y ago
        US has 10% more roads tho (probably more lanes too). However looking at road fuel use US uses something like 5-10x more fuel per year when compared with EU states. That's kinda insane.
cptskippy 6y ago
The tax just moves over the vehicle registration. In Georgia it was calculated in the tag fee and was about $250.

by brummm 6y ago

durkie 6y ago

I think you're right that the road tax structure will have to change as we move away from ICE cars, but I think the likelihood of electricity becoming more expensive is every low. Electricity is too ubiquitous, and its price should fall tremendously in the coming years (new solar projects being quoted at 2c/kwh and falling in several parts of the world)

brummm 6y ago
I don't think electricity will increase in price, but electricity used for moving a car will be taxed much like gasoline currently is. So the electricity used at home will stay the same, but the one used in car battery chargers will be a multiple of the price of normal electricity.

radium3d 6y ago

I think you're missing the efficiency aspect. Gasoline carries a much larger amount of energy so having a far more energy efficient, say in my example 26mpg going to 130+mpg saves a lot in energy cost as well. We do not ride for free. We pay an extra ~$100 a year (formula based on cost of car. I think it should be based on the weight of the vehicle personally. My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car) for registration here in California which covers the road maintenance so no need to worry there.

brummm 6y ago
How does $100 even compare? Currently in California there is a 79.6 cent tax(18.4 federal + 61.2 state) on a gallon of gasoline (I googled and it came up with a price of $3.36 per gallon. That boils down to a ~24% tax on gasoline. So for spending $416 dollars on gas, you'd be paying $100 of tax. I don't think paying $100 is even remotely enough to make up for the missing revenue. Further, a fixed fee penalizes people that drive a lot exactly as much as people that barely drive whereas a tax on the consumed quantity, gas or electricity, takes into account how much a person is using the road infrastructure.
- radium3d 6y ago
  Not all of the tax money on gasoline goes directly to road maintenance I would guess, it also goes to environmental cleanup projects I believe. Also, remember that EV's are not as heavy in all cases. My 3 SR+ weighs just 3627 lb Also note that here in CA if the car costs more the registration fee for the EV is more than $100 so I think that helps make up for the difference as well.
  - brummm 6y ago
    Fair enough. But that revenue would still be missing if everybody would switch to EV and it will have to be made up by taxing electricity used for charging car batteries. Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      > Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google. In terms of size, the Model 3 is closer aligned to a Camry than a Corolla. The Camry is ~3300-3600 lbs.
Marsymars 6y ago
> My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car. It absolutely does. The Honda Civic hatchback has 3. cubic feet more cargo room than the Tesla 3 with the seats down (including the frunk) and weighs 600 lb less.

ip26 6y ago

The federal fuel tax is 18 cents, not exactly massive. (Maybe you aren’t in the US though)

parliament32 6y ago
"Federal" try adding all your state/provincial, then local taxes. For me, in BC: Provincial motor fuel tax (Metro Vancouver) — 1.75 cents Provincial motor fuel tax (everywhere else in B.C.) — 7.75 cents. B.C.'s carbon tax — 8.89 cents. The B.C. Transportation Finance Authority tax — 6.75 cents. TransLink tax (If you live in Metro Vancouver) — 17 cents, increasing to 18.5 cents on July 1. Transit tax (If you live in Victoria) — 5.5 cents. Federal excise tax — 10 cents. Finally, pay the five per cent Goods and Services Tax on top of the total price. Adds up to 50% tax ish.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Most Europa pay something near $10 per gallon of gas. Does US taxing so little means their roads are half the cost?
  - parliament32 6y ago
    More people own cars in the US -> more gas purchased -> more total tax. Contrary to popular belief, the amount of cars driving over a road doesn't really contribute to how often it has to be repaved/repaired -- a road's wear is almost entirely based on its age. The more cars you have, the less fuel taxes will be to maintain the same amount of road surface. This means that when EVs become more popular, there'll be clever ways of taxing them too, whether it's an insurance surcharge or an up-front purchase tax or some sort of special "electricity for EVs" tax. This is the honeymoon period when they seem super cheap to drive, but that'll change as they replace fuel-powered cars and someone needs to pay for the roads/infra.
    - dzhiurgis 6y ago
      US has 10% more roads tho (probably more lanes too). However looking at road fuel use US uses something like 5-10x more fuel per year when compared with EU states. That's kinda insane.

cptskippy 6y ago

The tax just moves over the vehicle registration. In Georgia it was calculated in the tag fee and was about $250.